Its because the friction from the pants makes them too deadly, right?
If you want to limit techniques in competition, I personally think its lame, but I can understand the arguments for that.
If we are at an open mat and you flop for a weak ass straight ankle lock, leaving your foot dangling lazily over my thigh... Ima gon heelhook that sumbish. Just tap before you cry about heelhooks in the gi.
Seriously, can we just grapple?
same reason there's no headbutts in boxing.
it it was legal, everyone would just do that.
Peach
you can never do heel hooks in gi in any sort of competition. Why train with them in the gi? THats what no-gi training is for
I love heel hooks and I consider myself a specialist in them as I have consistently won many grappling matches and mma fights with them. I have no desire to train heel hooks in the gi as I also still compete a lot in the gi as well as no gi. I'd rather have them separated
There is no valid reason.
Just tradition prevents it at this point.
mideastgrappler -you can never do heel hooks in gi in any sort of competition. Why train with them in the gi? THats what no-gi training is for
I love heel hooks and I consider myself a specialist in them as I have consistently won many grappling matches and mma fights with them. I have no desire to train heel hooks in the gi as I also still compete a lot in the gi as well as no gi. I'd rather have them separated
What if you train predominantly in the Gi?
I have to adjust my game for a lot of competitions as thankfully not everyone sticks to the ibjjf ruleset (either Gi or Nogi.)
I think any decent grappler as able to limit his game to compete to a certain ruleset - but why limit their exposure to parts of Jiu Jitsu?
Too many people limiting themselves imo.
The "risk of injury" arguement is bullshit.
I'm ok with heel hooks in the gi as long as the deadly leg reap is outlawed.
One of the many reasons gi training is bullshit.
Heel Hooks CAN be safely trained, like anything, BUT...
The risk of serious injury IS higher with a Heel Hook--and certainly a Reverse Heel Hook-- compared to a straight armbar or other common submission. There's less distance between the point at which most people tap and the onset of injury in Heel Hooks.
Plus, if you pop someone's arm, it doesn't effect their ability to walk. They can still get around no problem. Knee submission can effect mobility AND they are more likely to cause the type of injury that requires SURGERY. The knee is a more complex joint than the elbow. Think about how many people you know who've had knee surgery vs how many you know who've had elbow surgery.
Pre-BJJ I did Leg lock heavy "Sub Wrestling" w/ Joe Charles, Gene LeBell & Gokor. I saw more hellacious knee injuries back then, than I have ever seen in BJJ.
Same reason you can't take off your belt and choke someone with it. Because the rules of the sport prohibit it.
The "Its not part of the sport" argument is circular. Its not trained because its not part of the sport because its not trained because its not part of the sport.
MEG's comments are practical but at the cost of retarding the growth(quality not popularity) of the art.
If you trust your training partner, and both agree to it- go for it.
However, it is a BS move to just randomly do it in training, when your partner doesn’t know it is “allowed”.
kying418 - If you trust your training partner, and both agree to it- go for it.However, it is a BS move to just randomly do it in training, when your partner doesn’t know it is “allowed”.
When not rolling with a regular training partner I play a traditional posiyion game and only attempt upper body subs.
If we are training and first chance you get u dive for my legs I take that as implicit confirmation that you are ok with leglocks.
If you only roll under the ibjjf purple belt gi ruleset the onus is on you to tell me so beforehand.
I get where you are coming from- if someone is attacking legs- they should be weary that all bets might be off (if they don't know their training partner) - and heel hooks, knee bars, etc are all legal.
However, most schools go by the IBJJF purple belt gi rulesets when training gi, so I’m still not sure why you wouldn’t just abide by that ruleset as a given.
LOL@ "rules of the sport" viewpoint.
but i thiught vasy majority DONT FUCKING COMPETE?!?!? This is the problem when sport defines training
Jiujitsu is becoming more faggotry! if you get a heelhook on a trainijg partner....just set it and let it go and roll-on. Its like not finishing a throw, when break partners balance, hit them hard and hook for an osoto but then come out and keep moving. Or whhen I train, im always training my VT stuff and then just move on. If you dont know what Im doing, you dont even see it or k ow what im doing.....except rape-choke. When I rape-choke, YOU KNOW YOU GETTING RAPE-CHOKED!
Grandmaster Shen has mentioned how strict no-gi guys are like vegans when it comes to wanting nothing to do with the gi. The irony is they're like that because of how restrictive gi training has become and continues to be - along with realizing that the idea that you need to train in the gi to improve your technique is BS. People are getting all the way to purple belt and are still white belts at leglocks. It's at the point where gi training is a hindrance to your development.
The Ghost Of Swayze - Grandmaster Shen has mentioned how strict no-gi guys are like vegans when it comes to wanting nothing to do with the gi. The irony is they're like that because of how restrictive gi training has become and continues to be - along with realizing that the idea that you need to train in the gi to improve your technique is BS. People are getting all the way to purple belt and are still white belts at leglocks. It's at the point where gi training is a hindrance to your development.
no....5he hinderance is allowing competition to define training objectives
The Ghost Of Swayze - Grandmaster Shen has mentioned how strict no-gi guys are like vegans when it comes to wanting nothing to do with the gi. The irony is they're like that because of how restrictive gi training has become and continues to be - along with realizing that the idea that you need to train in the gi to improve your technique is BS. People are getting all the way to purple belt and are still white belts at leglocks. It's at the point where gi training is a hindrance to your development.
I would disagree with this (I’ve been training since 2000). With the onset of the no gi / leg lock fascination, I have seen a good number of people that are weak at playing off their backs, guard retention, escapes, positional control, etc, all because they only care about submitting their training partners with lower body attacks.
That’s the main criticism I have with people that are fascinated with lower body attacks- many of them are more concerned with tapping out their training partners, than improving as overall grapplers.
I’ve made a thread about it before- my hypothesis is still that if you want to be a better no gi grappler, it still pays to train in the gi.
kying418 -The Ghost Of Swayze - Grandmaster Shen has mentioned how strict no-gi guys are like vegans when it comes to wanting nothing to do with the gi. The irony is they're like that because of how restrictive gi training has become and continues to be - along with realizing that the idea that you need to train in the gi to improve your technique is BS. People are getting all the way to purple belt and are still white belts at leglocks. It's at the point where gi training is a hindrance to your development.I would disagree with this (I’ve been training since 2000). With the onset of the no gi / leg lock fascination, I have seen a good number of people that are weak at playing off their backs, guard retention, escapes, positional control, etc, all because they only care about submitting their training partners with lower body attacks.
That’s the main criticism I have with people that are fascinated with lower body attacks- many of them are more concerned with tapping out their training partners, than improving as overall grapplers.
I’ve made a thread about it before- my hypothesis is still that if you want to be a better no gi grappler, it still pays to train in the gi.
While this can be true, it’s more of a result of the individual and not the sport. My guard retention has improved dramatically since I’ve ben learning the leg game. I still play a predominantly upper body game though because it feels safer to me but the freedom to explore any and all options have opened up more opportunities for the game I prefer. On top of that, I think the gi in general has a lot more negatives than positives and instills too many bad habits that hurt your overall grappling skills. Any benefit you can give in the gi I can give a better no gi example.
kying418 -The Ghost Of Swayze - Grandmaster Shen has mentioned how strict no-gi guys are like vegans when it comes to wanting nothing to do with the gi. The irony is they're like that because of how restrictive gi training has become and continues to be - along with realizing that the idea that you need to train in the gi to improve your technique is BS. People are getting all the way to purple belt and are still white belts at leglocks. It's at the point where gi training is a hindrance to your development.I would disagree with this (I’ve been training since 2000). With the onset of the no gi / leg lock fascination, I have seen a good number of people that are weak at playing off their backs, guard retention, escapes, positional control, etc, all because they only care about submitting their training partners with lower body attacks.
That’s the main criticism I have with people that are fascinated with lower body attacks- many of them are more concerned with tapping out their training partners, than improving as overall grapplers.
I’ve made a thread about it before- my hypothesis is still that if you want to be a better no gi grappler, it still pays to train in the gi.
Leg attacks being a novelty has definately caused some people to forego a lot of basics. Why pass guard when you can just entangle legs, etc.
The problem isnt learning leglocks early. The problem is thats its still such a novelty. Once everyone is accustomed to the game people will see less success prioritizing leg attacks and things will normalize.
Not introducing leg attacks until purple(or whatever) keeps the leglock game strong and encourages folks to abandon fundamentals for the new ‘better’ game.