Just wondering what other peoples thoughts are on non-bjj guys getting black belts or even brown belts in bjj. The rational I've heard is that maybe an individual does another form of ground fighting such as japanese jiu-jitsu or some sort of freestyle or whatever and that person taps out a bjj guy for example a purple belt and therefore they are worthy of that rank.....
To me this is shit, there is so much more to bjj then just the tap. In our academy if fighter "A" goes against fighter "B" and armbars him but fighter "B" controls the entire fight getting mount, side mount, back w/ hooks, knee in chest, and attempts several submissions then fighter "B" is worthy of the higher rank. The reason being fighter "B" can learn to not expose his arm but fighter "A" has to learn a great deal more to be able to fend off fighter "B".
Using myself for example, I am purple belt and can apply all the same submissions as my instructor but he can do it more instinctively, tighter, and using less strength. I mean his ass just floats where ever he wants to go, that to me is a black belt not some jerk-off 250+lb freestyle guy who is able to manhandle his opponent and muscle in a kimura.
I just dont think a tapout rates your belt its your technique and they aren't always one in the same. For someone to attain a belt without ever going through the paces like the rest of us is just infuriating to me. Yet I see this more and more now days. Not taking anything away from freestyle guys as I used to be one but I just dont think you've rated a belt in bjj without having gone and actually trained in that style.
I can't claim to be a black belt in Tae Kwon Do just because I tapped out a black belt in that style.
I'd say you'd have to judge it on an individual basis. Is the guy simply muscling his stuff in or is he actually using technique and finess? That's a very generalized statement to make without doing it on a case by case basis. What if a freestyle guy came in and hung with someone positional as well as in tapouts. I think that would change the situation somewhat. I'd agree though that positional control is extremely necessary.
"Using myself for example, I am purple belt and can apply all the same submissions as my instructor but he can do it more instinctively, tighter, and using less strength."
I've noticed the same thing with my instructor and I'm a freestyle guy... I wouldn't go out on a limb and say that's the case with all freestyle clubs, because I've never been to any other freestyle clubs.
IMHO if a fighter can submit another fighter the same weight as him,
REGULARLY and the guy he is submitting is a blackbelt in BJJ,then the
guy winning the fight should (IS) be a BJJ Blackbelt as well.
The key word here is REGULARLY and this means more than 8 times
and only counts in full power sparring and if the blackbelt is not
managing to tap the ungraded guy MORE often than he is being tapped
if you get my drift.....
The great thing about BJJ is you do not get a belt for time spent
training or for money spent training you get a belt for fighting ability.
The moment this ceases to become the case then BJJ will become
Mcdojo land.
There will of course be freaks who can tap blackbelts from training in
other arts-well they deserve blackbelts-but these guys are FEW and far
between.
If the submission system of grading is not used in this way the belot
system AND THEN the art will be devalued,so grading freaks is a
neccasary evil IMHO.
"REGULARLY and the guy he is submitting is a blackbelt in BJJ,then the guy winning the fight should (IS) be a BJJ Blackbelt as well."
I disagree with this.
BJJ is a sport that has a pretty set standard of core techniques and nuances. If a sambo guy who is great at leglocks comes in and keeps catching the black belt in leg locks, I dont think he should put on a BJJ black belt.
Time in the art is an important component because once you wear the black belt and start teaching, you are supposedly passing along BJJ not comparable submission grappling. Just because something is as effective doesnt make it the same.
IMO the BB has alot to do with rolling/competing but also putting in your time/loyalty under your instructor/team. Learning how to teach their style and philosophy is very important. If you look at a blackbelt from Renzo's, they all were loyal and have a high level and ability to use their jiujitsu competitivly as well as create very good students in their own right.
This is what makes jiujitsu strong today and what needs to continue to avoid the system being watered down. I can see a high level player from judo or just a no gi player who's never tested (like a Jackson Gaido guy) comming into the system and dedicating himself and achieving the BB in 3 years.
I don't have a problem with that as long as he can roll at the BB level and understands the philosophy/technique behind the art and can teach others.
I'm a BJJ Purple and a Judo yonkyu. I normally (in class at least ^_^) pin and tap judo black belts, if they throw me for less than ippon I can often reverse and get on top. Within the rules of judo I've won. But I am clearly NOT a judo BB.
Winning is a good measure, but it's not the only thing. It's also about the knowledge you have about the whole game, including the sport aspects.
As another poster pointed out, if a MT guy KOs a TKD guy 99% of the time, that doesn't mean he also deserves/earned the rank of TKD BB.
The real question is this: What does rank mean? Because on the mat rank doesn't really count for that much in and of itself. To me rank shows a certain mix of knowledge, skill and experience. And that's not something that's based solely on how fast/easily you can tap someone.
"Time in the art is an important component because once you wear the black belt and start teaching, you are supposedly passing along BJJ not comparable submission grappling. Just because something is as effective doesnt make it the same."
I agree with Andre, positions can be taught quickly but technique is learned over time and constant attention with someone qualified fixing your mistakes
Belts are generally awarded for performance but they are awarded BY INDIVIDUALS. To a certain degree, their evaluation of a student will be subjective and will factor in such things as ability to teach and coach, character and loyalty, etc.
If an instructor felt that a student lacked maturity or integrity and did not want that student to represent him or his organization or school as a BB (regardless of tournament performance), then that is their perogative.
My only point is, that there is more to it than who can tap whom.
A noobie question to the higher and more experienced belts here:
If an MMA person with bases in Judo and Boxing trains sports BJJ with another MMA guy with a base in BJJ, in order to learn the rules and compete in sports BJJ tournaments, would his ground grappling be considered BJJ or Judo?
Extending this further, if this Judo/Boxing person attends BJJ seminars, studies BJJ instructional tapes, does well against purple belts in comps, would a BJJ BB still consider him a White belt if the Judo/Boxing guy joins his team ... or would the instructor fast track him to purple, or at least blue, and recognize his skills?
Is the scenario above any different from how our valued forum brother jonpall achieved his BJJ milestone of blue belt?
Thanks.
~ from a noob in Judo/BJJ and almost everything else
Joejiujitsu... I am not assuming anything I am giving you a hypothetical situation where a person DOES come in and muscle his way through things.
Another example... We had a guy come in from a freestyle school, he had trained for a number of years and was previously a blue belt under pedro sauer prior to doing freestyle. He wore his blue belt into our academy and grappled for a few months to allow our instructor to get a handle on his entire game not just his performance in one match, then he promoted him to purple belt. This is the proper method for doing things I think. I also know a guy at the freestyle academy I used to train at who was given a belt from another guy who he trained with maybe twice but because they were friends and somewhat business partners they decided this was ok. I've grappled black belts and competed against brown and purple belts and this guy, although he has a few submissions, is NO WHERE NEAR any of these levels. He can not grapple without using every ounce of his 260+lbs to and I have physically witnessed a strong purple belt take him to school yet now he is teaching with a brown belt. This is one reason why I broke from this academy. I am just seriously afraid that our sport is going to go the same road as Tae Kwon Doe and end up with unqualified black belts all over and in 20 years BJJ will be a joke. I pray that those who paid their dues and put in the time will be more careful and less tempted my monetary means.
Like Irish bjj prodigy :) John Kavanagh became Purple from scratch (if i understood it correctly) if Matt Thornton gave it to him and there is nothing wrong with that..
jonpall got his blue training by himself and off instructionals...he had Matt Thornton over to his place only once...
I got my blue from training all by myself - no nonesoever formal bjj instruction with any belt of bjj before the seminar I actually got my blue belt...
That aside, performance does not mean only making the other one tap... it means a complete game at that belt level... so you are not only a good passer but you also must have a guard or you are not only guard man but can also play on top etc. So the guy who would tap everybody with leglocks would not be able to perform on the wanted belt level probably...
My understanding is Brazilian Judoka Flavio Canto was given and recognized as a Bjj black belt simply based on concensus.
That is because Flavio Canto did so well against legit bjj black belts during sparring sessions at various Bjj schools he was given and recognized as a Bjj black belt although he has never offically train in Bjj or been through any Bjj progression of belts.
He was given a Bjj Black belt because he consistently beat Bjj black belts.
CBJJ rules state that a Judo blackbelt is given a purplebelt when they start training BJJ. This is to protect white/bluebelts in competition from going up against (for example) a nationally ranked Judoka and getting stomped into the mat. They assume that a purplebelt at least knows how to breakfall enough to not get hurt if they're thrown.
As far as the rest of it, I agree with Andre. A BJJ belt is given for ability in BJJ, not the ability to tap someone.
I didn't know that. I would like to see where that is written just for my personal records. I don't think that "rule" is enforced or used in the U.S otherwise David and Dan Camarillo wouldn't have been competing as blue belts in Bjj when they were already black belts in Judo.
Also Flavio Canto never competed in bjj but was given a black belt in Bjj based on how well he did against other Bjj black belts in sparring session!
MG, my instructors are Roger Gracie and Felipe Souza, Felipes instructor is Leao Teixeira(sp) who is the vice president of the CBJJ, I don't know where you could read it but I was told this by them so I guess it's legit.
(I know you're not calling me a liar or anything, just clarifying it so you know I didn't just pull the info from my ass!)