" This is why students do need to learn the Gokyo and "grasp" at least the concepts of the kata, so we understand what technique is what, and why. "
The word "kids" isn't even used in the post and the phrase "grasp at least the concepts of the kata" can hardly be interpreted s "teach kids kata." Stop looking for an argument for the sake of an argument.
Josh wrote:"ben, they are very distinct throws within their own right.. though, if you really look at the 3 of them, IMHO, they are all pretty much based off the same core principle, just modified for a certain reason."
All share close body contact and use the hips, albeit in the pure end member throws in a distinct manner.
I'll write what my understanding of the throws is:
O Goshi: Hip acts as a "scoop", arm around waist does not lift, only pulls uke in tight. Alternatively, the hip can act as a block to roll uke over by twisting the body/lifting a bit with the legs.
Uki Goshi: The key here is the "float". Hip entry is shallow (I was taught it is a "half hip" throw, whereas O Goshi is a "full hip" throw). Throw is done with a special kind of twist of the hips, body, no Lifting involved with legs. Close body contact is needed, but it is different than O Goshi.
Tsuri Goshi: So we all know what Tsuri is, to lift from above like a crane, as in tsuri te, Tsurikomi Goshi, etc. You use your arm/hand to grab the belt and apply the tsuri action to help throw uke. That would be Ko Tsuri Goshi. If you grab over the back, high collar, etc., it would be O Tsuri Goshi. I was originally taught that you could do O Goshi from a collar grip, no arm around waist, and do Tsuri Goshi from the collar grip as well. I'm not sure that's true now though, technically. I guess if you did an O Goshi hip action but did not use any tsurite on the collar, only used it to pin uke to you, it could be true.
Those are the "pure" end members. Of course, they get mixed up in actual randori or shiai a lot.
"uke goshi doesnt lift like Ogoshi does... why? maybe becuase sometimes the opponent is either too big to lift or tori isnt capable of it or perhaps just becuase uke moved sideways and slipped off a bit."
Right, in actual application those are good reasons you might end up in Uki Goshi after starting an O Goshi or Tsuri Goshi. The hip and upper body action of Uki Goshi is pretty distinct.
all the same, if i practice only a basic ogoshi and am in randori there are high chances that, without knowing either of the other 2 throws, that i could do them while attempting ogoshi only."
I agree, Josh.
"they are such a close-knit family of throws that i dont think you need to practice all three of them hundreds of times to be able to use them.. i think if you have a good ogoshi that you can easily use the other 2 and begin moving to uchimata, harai and hane..."
Sure, I don't think it would be wise for somebody focused on competition to practice all three hundreds of times. O Goshi is the most basic of hip throws, so that would be the one to focus on. YOu could work "variations" off of it depending upon what uke's reaction was, and would end up with throws that look like or are Uki Goshi and Tsuri Goshi.
"BTW.. did you ever notice how often 4-10 year olds will do uke-goshi while attempting Ogoshi..."
Yeah, I have. It's funny, because you know they haven't a clue as to what they just did!
Ben R.
Michael A. wrote:"Ben, Uki-goshi + o-goshi.
How many time you try o-goshi and don't get in deep enough so it ends up being an uki-goshi.
I think we're splitting hairs."
Not over the key principles involved in the pure end members throws. Kano put them in the Gokyo because they illustrate distinct end members of the hip throws (including the other koshi waza, harai, etc.).
Now, in terms of what happens in competition, I'm in agreement with Josh, and yourself. You go for one thing and may well end up in another depending upon how uke reacts.
Ben R.
Mark wrote:"Ummm....
...I think if we look at things like sode tsurikomi goshi, or even morote seoi nage, we see Ogoshi in there."
I agree, the basic stepping pattern is the same or very similar, among other things.
"We need to remember the Gokyo was put together to be building blocks to other actions. "
Exactly.
"Harai Goshi is much easier to learn if you understand uki goshi. "
That's what I was taught as well, Mark. Both were taught to me as "half hip" throws, although, the hip are used in a different manner in each throw.
"Another example is there is a very big difference between koshi guruma and kubi nage; but almost all teach and perform it as kubi nage. Even though by defination Kubi nage is illegal in randori or shiai."
LOL, I know what you mean. Koshi Guruma is the "guruma" principle applied to the koshi waza. Kube Nage is definitly different.
This is why students do need to learn the Gokyo and "grasp" at least the concepts of the kata, so we understand what technique is what, and why. "
That's the original way that Kano wanted it. However, not everybody sees it that way.
I'm in agreement with you, Mark. Of course, I'm a bit prejudiced, because that is the way I learned Judo in the first place!
Ben R.
Josh wrote: "mark, absolutley not.
kids have no reason whatsoever to learn the kata. they do not need to learn how to bow in sync like that, how to take fake, non-existant grips and how to move in such slow motion in order to learn the throws of judo or to learn what throws build into other throws. if you teach them solidly and if you are good with kids and keep them from getting bored they will learn judo so fast and so well they will amaze you. "
Josh, I'd just like to point out that the Nage No Kata is NOT supposed to be done in slow motion. Each throw, and each set of throws, has it's own pace, and it's own change of pace, because each throw works best at a certain pace. Also, you CAN do the nage no kata as fast as you like and can do with control, and hopefully correctly. As to the non-existant grips, the grips are standard sleeve and lapel, switches for kata guruma to a grip that some folks use, high collar for Uchi Mata and Tsuri Komi Goshi, under the armpit for Harai Goshi, and the odd grip-but-no-grip for Uki Waza, and Sumi Gaeshi. And then there is the "grip" for Ippon Seoi and Uki Goshi, and last but not least, Ura Nage. So the grips DO vary in the Nage no Kata, certainly not all possible sorts of grips, but a variety.
I agree that kids will learn Judo amazingly fast! They learn almost ANYTHING amazingly fast, as you will soon discover with your little girl!
"IF ANYTHING id say it would be much more useful to some adults who are starting judo late in life as they have the ability to comprehend it as a concept and usually dont suffer the "pick your nose, pantyhose" and ADD issues that kids do. "
I don't think I'd worry about teaching nage no kata to little kids. That said, you CAN make it interesting. Plus, you can make up your own kata (prearanged drills) that they will like and think are fun.
"the kata sucks for little kids. they dont have the patience to learn it and there is no reason for us to believe that they need to. if it was at all a necessary thing then i am sure it would be taught to kids in japan (whose players are easily the most technical in the world) and it isnt."
Good point about kids in Japan. Heck, a fighting sandan from a major university can probably just basicly walk through it, let alone do a good performance.
Ben R.
it is a perfect counter if you have ice-water in your viens