I don't know if this would apply in your situation, but I got some very good advice from another poster on here a while back.
I almost always escape to my knees and then pull guard from there. I will get to my knees, then try for a takedown.But it is very difficult to go to my knees and then immediately sit back to guard, at least against anyone with some skill. You really have to (1) get to your knees, (2) drive in to them and go for the takedown, and then (3) sit back into guard (or just sit back on your haunches and start playing from the knees, or stand up).
It's the energy of them resisting your takedown attempt that makes it easy to go to guard.
I find it very difficult to go to my knees and then immediately sit back to guard, at least against anyone with some skill. You really have to (1) get to your knees, (2) drive in to them and go for the takedown, and then (3) sit back into guard.
How can you take a guy down from underneath side ride? You don't have a good enough grip on his leg. Sure, you can drive into him and maybe that will be enough to set up dropping quickly back to guard, I dunno...
Also, Leo's "windmill" takedown (where you circle your arm back and around to catch them as they are going for your back) is very helpful. I do it as I am going to my knees a lot of the time. I may not get the takedown but it stops their progress towards sideride or the back position.
In my scenario, when I get to my knees, they're already at my side, because they where in modified scarf hold (some people call it "underhook sitout").
oh, nvm then.
So you are getting to your knees without first getting the underhook?
So you are getting to your knees without first getting the underhook?
Yes. I would like to have the underhook, but against the modified scarf hold, it's tough to get. But if I don't let him have my near arm and drive it down towards the mat, I can get to my knees pretty easily with just a big bridge. Against white and blue belts I can escape from there but generally against purple belts I get stuck from there.
So what happens when you do this against whites/blues? You still end up in turtle with them in side ride right?
The Gimp - So what happens when you do this against whites/blues? You still end up in turtle with them in side ride right?
Yes, but I'm able to escape the side ride, probably because their side ride isn't super tight. I escape using a variety of methods, but I could be better at pulling guard from there, I think.
I just rewatched Michael Jen's pin escapes tape on the modified scarf hold and also the pin prevention system. Interesting. F.ex. He gets to his knees from under modified scarf hold differently than I've been doing and maybe that's my problem. I just pop up to my knees and keep my arms tucked. He holds the belt with his far arm and gets his other elbow on the mat at some distance before he gets to his knees. That way I think he gets a bit more distance than I'm getting.
For later viewing.
i would watch saulo's vids on the turtle as well
Let us know how it works out in sparring.
Does anyone here ever grab your opponent's belt with your far arm when under modified scarf (like I was saying Jen does)?
It kind of looks like what the SBG guys call a "brace position". You are lying on your bottom elbow and your top arm is extended. The only difference is that Matt Thornton shows moves where he posts on his opponent's shoulder but I'm talking about grabbing the belt near the bellybutton and push.
Chime in if anyone ever uses that!
Pin escapes has been a focus of mine for a long time as I feel it is really a lost art. Most people don't like to focus on it for too long because it sucks to be on the bottom and get smashed when things aren't working!
My system of pin escapes has evolved tremendously over time. What I was doing in 2001 is incredibly different from what I was doing in Jan. 2008. In addition, what I am working on now in Sept. 2008 is different from what I was doing in Jan. 2008. The reason for these evolutionary changes is not because of people I have grappled with from other schools, but rather because of the exposure to my system, my own students are getting incredibly good at pinning. I now have blue and purple belts who have pinning skills like black belts and I hate getting pinned by those fuckers! :)
We've all heard the saying that learning truly begins at black belt level. I find this very accurate. With my study of pin escapes, I have taken the attitude of scrapping everything that I know and re-building everything from the very beginning in an attempt to make everything more effective and efficient. In doing so, I am forcing myself to take a more objective look at pinning and pin escapes. What do I mean by "objective"? This means that I need to remove all my preconceived ideas of what I thought was effective. I then found that I needed to look at pinning and pin escapes using physics and human biomechanics because those were universal laws that were not subjective. For me, using physics and biomechanics has helped me understand the "whys" and "why nots" so much better. Once I began to figure out those answers, it has begun to make it a lot easier to figure out the solutions to my problems.
TiTTy!
My approach to modified scarf hold is vaguely similar to that of standard scarf hold, but I think the same principles still apply.
Scarf hold and modified scarf hold escapes are different than sidemount in that you have 3 distinct escape directions: Sitting up escapes, bridging, turning in and getting getting up to your knees. Usually the key to getting out that I was taught and find useful is that your opponents respsonse to stuff each different direction is entirely wrong to stuff the other two directions. So you have to play multipe escape directions off against your opponent to off balance them and then escape out the direction they leave open.
My favorite is to shrimp in to make space, as they close the space, drop your arms down as low around their waist as possible, and over their arm as low on their body as you can manage, and then bridge and roll them.
Same thing in reverse, bridge, then shrimp in and get to knees.
Try to sit up hard to shrimp or situp to bridge.
There's a lot of more detailed versions of each of those escapes out there, but I've always found focusing on that principle of bouncing back and forth between the 3 directions is successful. Like using a guillotine/hip bump/ kimura combo. They're kept off balance and they're not sure which way you'll go.
Great stuff guys.
However, almost none of you have actually answered my very first question - where do you like to put your arms when you're completely on your side underneath sidecontrol?
I know that getting the underhook from there is a good option, but sometimes your opponent doesn't let you have it. Sometimes there is enough distance to stiff arm the head. I'm experimenting with grabbing the belt with my top arm. What are you guys doing?
Maybe my original question was worded badly.
Just came back to training with Arnar, a very good purple belt. I wound up in this position many times.
I found out that if you're COMPLETELY on your side (and your bottom elbow is underneath your rib cage) AND you don't have the underhook (in my case because Arnar was in a sit-out position (modified scarf hold without holding my near arm), it's very hard to shrimp and pull guard if the top guy knows how to control your hips. He'll be heavy on your hips and all his weight is is there.
So I worked on popping up onto my knees and working from there. I found that grabbing the belt wasn't working all that well for me so the best thing I could do, and my friend agreed with me, was to use my top arm in two places (after I'd got to my knees and ended up in side ride):
A) Either to pummel for an underhook and try to hook his leg with that arm and my same side foot for a single leg takedown, or B) to stiff arm his near knee and fall back to pull half guard.
Both of us experimented with this and liked that the best.
As far as I'm concerned, now I have something to work with for this problem of mine. Maybe this will help someone reading this and maybe some experienced purple belts and above will agree that this makes sense :)
Thanks for reading my FRAT thread.
you could also roll over your near shoulder back to open guard.
demandango - you could also roll over your near shoulder back to open guard.
He wraps his arm around my waist and controls my hips really well so that's very hard against him. I've got it to work against other guys but I'm not sure how to set it up well against very good grapplers.