Order of Exercises

I'm doing a Mon/Wed/Fri routine. I like it except for one problem I have with the Friday(explained below). The routine looks like this..........

Back Row DB 2x10

Dips 2x10

Push-ups 50

Shoulder Press 2x10

Squats 2x10

Wide Grip BB Curls 2x10

Tricep Kickbacks DB 2x10

100 Sit-ups

The problem is that after the dips and the push ups my tris are really tired and I don't feel like I'm able to hit my shoulders hard enough with the shoulder press because of it. I've only been back in the gym for a little over a month so maybe my tris will build up to it and not be such a weak link for the shoulder press in a while. I'm tempted to do the shoulder press before the dips and push-ups but I think that since I'll always be adding weight to the shoulder press then that will always leave me too tired after to do dips and push-ups properly. I think it's better to do the calisthenics first because I won't be adding weight to them and they'll eventually be easy. Should I just keep working hard and be patient or is the program flawed? Any advice? Thanks

yes, if you do the same program you will adapt to it, so yes you can just be patient.

My Advice-

You should always be switching up your routines almost daily. I'm not a fan of the set routine. Every work-out I do is different.

If you want to hit the shoulders do something like upright row,lateral raises, or reverse flys that don't involve the tris.

You can always switch the squats with the shoulder press to give yourself a little rest.

Thanks nowinfuspeed, I think the program is, at least for the most part, laid out that way.

sfbjj- I think I'll take your advice and switch the squats with the shoulder press. I thought of it before but didn't do it because I thought the shoulder press being closer to the DB kickbacks would mess that up. But, since you mentioned it and I thought about it again, I'll probably gain more in the shoulder press than I'll lose in the kickbacks by doing it that way. It makes sense to space out the breaks for the tris. I'll mix it all up down the road but I like doing the same routine because it's easier to chart progress and therefore more rewarding and motivating. I am doing upright row, lateral raises, and forward raises on other days so I think/hope I'm hitting the shoulders in enough different ways. I'll probably incorporate reverse flys down the road since I keep hearing that they're good. Thanks.

Why don't you keep all your Shoulders on one day? I think your whole split is a little weird.

IMO Push/Legs/Pull/Rest or Upperbody/Lowerbody is the easiest way of setting up your spilts.

I would go back to the drawing board with your work out.

Large muscle groups first, small muscle groups last.

If I were you, I'd drop the kickbacks and most likely the push-ups too. You don't need a million exercises for your triceps.

sfbjj- There's a school of thought that suggests it's better to hit all the muscles on all 3 days. If I do push on Monday for instance, the chest, tris, etc. heal and grow for about 36 hours after the workout and then deplete slowly during the remaining days till the next Monday. Since all they need is 36 hours to heal, why not hit them Mon/Wed/Fri? I'm not doing the exact same exercises on all 3 days but I am doing some push, some pull, and some legs on all 3 days.

Here's a link to a site that I got from Toolin which focuses on this kind of training http://www.hypertrophy-specific.info/hst_index.html

aatu- I think that's probably what I'll do. Makes sense. Thanks.

Muscle needs at least 24hrs to recover, there for yes you can hit every muscle three days a week, But where your flaw comes in is that you may be doing different exercises but it's the same muscle. That's why I promote things like Push/Pull/Legs or Upperbody/Lowerbody You are still hitting the muscle more than once a week but you are also giving it enough time to rest.

One common mistake people make in the gym is trying to hard to work out every single day. You need to let your body recover, Many times in my life I've involuntarily taken a couple weeks off. to my suprise when I would come back to the gym I would actually be stronger, it has also help me put on mass.


He is doing HST. Not sure if you are familiar with it or not. They spread the volume out over a week long period. So, their weekly volume is equivalent to other programs that work the muscles with less frequency (but more volume per workout). They also change the rep ranges every few weeks and allow for a de-conditioning phase as well.

I've never tried it personally, but it looks plausible and many people have gotten good results. As the name suggests, Hypertrophy-Specific Training, it is geared towards mass building, not performance necessarily.

So even though his workouts r frequent, the volume per workout is kept low...two sets per exercise. The way he had it written it looks like 10 sets of 2. I thought that's what he meant until he said it was HST.

sfbjj- I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting that going to the gym every day and hitting the same muscles is a good idea. What I'm saying is I think it's good to hit chest, for example, on Mon/Wed/Fri but with different exercises. I'm not going every day, I'm giving 48 hrs rest, and I feel like it's good to hit the same muscle in different ways to promote functional strength and power in a greater range, hitting as many synergists and stabilizers as I can. I could be wrong about some stuff(I've done programs made for me by PTs in the past but I've never really done research on theory till now) but I think you misunderstood me on this one. If I'm wrong and I'm the one doing the misunderstanding please let me know.

oops, I meant 2 sets of 10. I edited it.

My bad I totally read that wrong.

Toolin- I hate the kickbacks too. I'll add pushdowns to Wed where they'll fit better. I'm already doing them on Mon. The push-ups are out. The DB power clean and presses, is that just a clean and press with a DB, alternating hands or is there more to it? I'm not cycling through the rep/weight ranges yet. I just figure that since I just picked the weights back up a month ago I'll make big gains for a while regardless. I'm being a bit lazy with the planning part, I think I can get away with it for now. Once things slow down I'm going to cycle the reps and weight. I'm going to join the HST forum. Thanks.

Thanks for explaining, sounds like a good exercise.

what does your entire routine look like? what are your goals?

Salyer36, I want functional strength for jiu-jitsu but I also just want to be bigger. Here's the whole routine(two sets of ten for everything unless otherwise specified).



Bench Press

Leg Press

BB Upright Row

DB Hammer Curls

Rope Pushdowns

Proper Sit-ups x 100

Supermans/Back Extensions (hold) 2x1 minute


Lat Pull Down

DB Chest Flies

Lunges (1 set of alternating, 10 each leg)

Lateral Lunges (1 separate set of ten for each leg)

Rope Pushdowns

DB Lateral Raises

DB Forward Raises

Wrist Curls

Sit-ups x 100


DB Back Row/Saw On Bench



Wide Grip BB Curls

Shoulder Press

Sit-ups x 100


And, to everyone who offered advice. I did the Friday last night with the changes, I took out the push-ups and the kickbacks and it was way better. Before, with all the tri exercises I couldn't shoulder press two sets of ten with 20's. Last night I did it easily and picked up the 25's for a 3rd set and got it done. So, I felt like I actually hit my shoulders last night which was good and I'll start with the 25's next time. Thanks for the help.

how long have you been lifting for?
i think overall your routine can be vastly improved and still kept to 3 days a week. you could do either

Mon-Push chest, tris, shoulders


Fri-Pull back/bis/4arms

Mon- horinztal liftng Bench/DB row/tricep bench etc.


Fri- vertical lifting pullups/chinups/shoulder presses etc.

C. Joe defranco's westside for skinny bastards is another great routine

there is a lot of different things you could do.

Your lifting routine should be designed based on your strengths and weaknesses, your goals, your sports, your time, etc. Therefore, I'm not commenting on your exercise selection or split, but on the order of exercises you listed. I agree with a previous poster that you should lift large muscle groups first. After warming up properly, i would start with Squats since they use the most and largest muscles, and it is potentially the most dangerous of the exercises you listed. finish with the pushups and dips, as they are great for "burning out" at the end of workouts. there is a school of thought regarding Pre-fatigue before lifting big muscle groups, but I'm not a fan of that.