I was wondering what is the reasoning behind a bodypart split routine? Like when you work back and tris one day, and chest and bis the next. I was never a lifter, but I train at a MMA gym where a guy was training for a pro fight (smaller show), and he was using that sort of lifting schedule.
Is this primarily a bodybuilder routine or does it serve useful strength benefits?
It's hard to tell whether this was smart, because we don't know what the fighter was doing in terms of other training. Maybe didn't want to be training martial arts after a day of heavy squats and SLDLs or whatever.
That said, yes split routines are generally 'bodybuilder' routines. And while this isn't perhaps optimal, don't fool yourself -- bodybuilders get very, very strong doing this stuff. It is perhaps not their primary goal, but it is an inevitable side-effect. All other things being equal, a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle.
Thanks Ali. It seems everyone that I speak to in real life who lifts weights to get strong does this sort of routine. I guess it just shows where people get their info from (Arnolds Encyclopedia, Muscle and Fitness, etc...).
My understanding is it's a body building routine...while atheletes use powerlifting and/or endurance training.
the concept is based around recovery times for the muscles. There are a number of peole who would argue that even for body building there are better ways to train than splits.
I've seen powerlifters do a "split" routine, in which they pick one lift (squat, bench, or deadlift), and that is the primary focus of the day, with other exercises meant to strengthen that exercise. So a guy might do bench, dumbell incline, and tricep work one day, then the next squats, leg presses and lunges the next, etc.
cockneye blue is correct about the purpose is to follow the bodies recovery times. and yes, this is very useful in MMA sometimes.
the big compound exercises (squats, deadlifts, bench, rows etc.) tend to be much more useful than isolated exercises for most sport activities. however, this is not the only training principle involved -
different muscles often have different recovery times from the same workout. if my triceps are sore and overtrained, but my chest is fully recovered, what do i do on bench/push day? do i undertrain my chest or overtrain my triceps?
especially with all the secondary work my triceps get from wrestling/rolling/sparring/drilling, my triceps take a lot longer to recover than my chest. i'll usually do a chest day (cables or something - no pressing/tricep work) and whatever other muscles are "ripe" that day. i'll try to do a program limited enough that my chest will be fully recovered on the same day my triceps are.
similar principles can be applied to other muscle groups. we're not mindlessly following a rigid schedule, we're not labrats hitting a feed button, we're actively listening to our bodies, and doing the most efficient work out we can do on any given day.
i don't lift weights because i like looking at naked men in the locker room - i lift to get stronger! what is the point of lifting if a muscle is too overtrained to respond properly and get stronger? my best gains came when i stopped overtraining. sometimes, less is more.
Just to chime in a bit about the split-routine = bodybuilder idea:
I wonder if it all came about when "physique contests" (and their own criteria of the ideal male physique) became popular?
"the big compound exercises (squats, deadlifts, bench, rows etc.) tend to be much more useful than isolated exercises for most sport activities"
Why?
"different muscles often have different recovery times from the same workout."
Do they? What is the difference between the two that makes one overtrain and not the other? And why is overtraining centered on one muscle or muscle group rather than systemic?
"i'll try to do a program limited enough that my chest will be fully recovered on the same day my triceps are."
How can the average trainee become sensative enough to know when one muscle is overtrained while the other is recovered (if such a condition even exists)? Particularly considering that the initial symptoms of overtraining are notoriously difficult to detect.
-doug-
good points doug. there are multiple forms of overtraining, from subtle CNS stuff, to blatant extreme muscular soreness. even an average trainee, if he feels that his triceps are sore as hell, but his chest stopped feeling any kind of muscular soreness more than 24 hours ago, he knows that his triceps haven't fully recovered, but his chest probably has. and you are correct, some forms of overtraining may not be immediately obvious to a novice. your coach and a little but of reading should give you the general guidelines of your sport. a lot of the CNS stuff has been intensively studied by powerlifting and weight lifting coaches. and the longer you train/compete, the better you learn to listen to your body. unfortunately, you usually have to push yourself over the limit a few times to find out exactly where the line is.
a couple of notes on strength training - your muscles grow/adapt/get stronger while resting not when working out. the purpose of your workout is stimulate your muscles, the recovery period is when they actually grow/adapt. yeah, you can get stronger while continually being sore - but its a lot slower, and you plateau a lot lower.
this is the pure muscle end of it. there are still CNS adaptions you can make, but generally, you want to minimize trauma during the growth period.
to adress your other question - why the heck would EVERY exercise work every muscle to the exact same degree, and require exactly the same recovery time? thats just not the way your body works. you can change the muscles you emphasize just by making small changes in your squat and deadlit form. and for an MMA athlete, i have to use these muscles somewhat all the time in my skills/sparring/wrestling/rolling routine. i don't even know what muscles i'm going to use until i have to counter what my oppponent is doing. if i have to fight out of 10 tight right side armbars, i'm probably not doing curls with my right arm afterwards. or my usual big compound exercises - my right arm already had a tremendous sport specific workout and my right bicep will be recovering/growing/adapting for a couple of days. but i could do some cool assymetrical exercises with my left arm. i'll aim to work my left arm exactly as hard as my right arm worked, so they both are ready to train again around the same time.
the exact split is little more difficult to explain. it was easier to understand when i saw the graph in front of me. but basicly, for whatever reason (a lot of secondary sport specific work, whatever), when a particualar muscle is fully recovered (a good rule of thumb is AT LEAST 24 hours after you got rid of the last bit of muscular soreness) just find a good exercise to give it (it's good to switch it up and keep your workouts fresh anyway). especially when you're pushing your body to the limit in a demanding sport, you can't just say "monday, wednesday, friday, i do this, tuesday, thursday, saturday i do that".
is this beast strong jiu jitsu doug, or is this scrawny doug? if it's scrawny doug, i'm going to beat your ass in the gym tomorrow! if this is jiu jitsu doug, you owe me a private lesson!
i thought this was doug callenda (beast strong jiu jitsu guy) or thin doug from Sityodtong. it's actually the doug the trainer that made the core strenth DVD. too many dougs at sityodtong!
my credentials and experience - doug and some others here have more book knowledge. but i've been lifting hard for 20 years, and 20 years of reading the same guys you read, plus the experience of trying to apply this to my own training. i actively trained and competed for 15 of these years in wrestling, boxing, judo, BJJ, and MMA (including a UFC appearance). very few people have as much real world experience as i do in combining weight training with combat sports. this is very difficult to do properly. one of my biggest advantages as an athlete is that 95% of my competition doesn't know how to lift properly for MMA, and they drop from 250 to 205. i've consistently GAINED strength and size, while doing a program that is mostly cardio and explosive strength exercises.
my lifting and cardio training have always been based on fight training, not bodybuilding. like matt hughes, i've found some classic bodybuilding lifts that were useful, but 95% of my program is explosive strength and cardio. in spite of the focus of my training, i've gained about a 100 pounds of solid muscle, at the same height and bodyfat%. note that mass is not the purpose of my program, but merely a byproduct. but we all know how hard it is to gain mass when doing tons of cardio, skill work, and explosive power training, so i still think this is worth mentioning.
at the same height i am now, i wrestled at 171 lbs. i am now about 280, and i've competed at every weight in between. i have a flatter stomach now than i did when i was wrestling at 171. doug can attest that i'm a lot leaner than i was at the UFC (and stronger too).
people frequently tell me i'm the strongest person they've ever rolled with. i have been manhandled by good athletes with superior technique and leverage, but i can't remember being flat out overpowered since the 90s.
LOL! wizzleteats makes me sweep down the mats for cardio! you better be teaching me some kind of special "karate kid" "wax on, wax off" move using that motion, or i will be very disapponted!
Yes, it was Kearns that made the dvd. And yes, i am Kenny's s&c coach and nutritionist.
20 years is a long time to be exercising Gannon. That's dedication! You should consider, however, in a discussion about experience vs. "book learning;" as a professional trainer for the past 10 years, i've recorded and tracked the results of hundreds of clients which adds up to quite a bit of practical experience.
In any case, i'll respond to the posts when i have a bit more time.
-doug-
doug, i do have respect for you and your reputation. i learn a lot from listening and reading guys like you. i would love to listen to your ideas next time we're at the gym. i experiment and adapt good ideas to my routine all the time.
"there are multiple forms of overtraining, from subtle CNS stuff, to blatant extreme muscular soreness"
Indeed i'm sure you're right, but you should avoid making "factual" statements about the causes of overtraining since even the scientific community isn't sure what it is. It's likely, much like the term 'shin splints' that what we generally call overtraining is actually several different afflictions.
" even an average trainee, if he feels that his triceps are sore as hell, but his chest stopped feeling any kind of muscular soreness more than 24 hours ago, he knows that his triceps haven't fully recovered, but his chest probably has. "
What you describe could just as easily be a result of doing a lift "improperly" as it is a need for isolation lifts. I'm not particularly convinced that your argument here necessitates doing isolations because compound lifts spread resistance unevenly.
"some forms of overtraining may not be immediately obvious to a novice. your coach and a little but of reading should give you the general guidelines of your sport. a lot of the CNS stuff has been intensively studied by powerlifting and weight lifting coaches. and the longer you train/compete, the better you learn to listen to your body. unfortunately, you usually have to push yourself over the limit a few times to find out exactly where the line is."
A coach can study it until he's blue in the face but many symptoms of overtraining will continue to mimic depression, anxiety, and so on, and so be elusive to even the greatest scrutiny. Additionally, overtraining symptoms tend to protect the motions that cause the overtraining, and so performance is certainly not the first the suffer (at least with the primary sport movements in question).
"your muscles grow/adapt/get stronger while resting not when working out. the purpose of your workout is stimulate your muscles,"
I suppose this depends on when you consider the "growing" period to have begun, but alright.
"yeah, you can get stronger while continually being sore - but its a lot slower, and you plateau a lot lower. "
Since soreness is a pretty poor indicator of progress or lack thereof i'm not sure what you are striving at by making such a blatantly obtuse and arguable a statement as this.
"this is the pure muscle end of it. there are still CNS adaptions you can make, but generally, you want to minimize trauma during the growth period. "
I don't know what this means at all. Minimize what trauma? For what result?
"why the heck would EVERY exercise work every muscle to the exact same degree, and require exactly the same recovery time?"
While i suspect you are probably right, this is not a very good argument. You made the claim that compound exercises were better than isolation. If a compound lift is so modifiable, why wouldnt you adjust it based on your earlier skill sessions, if the compounds really are better?
My point is, you are making a contradictory claim by saying that compounds are better for the sport, but then making an argument against their use. A better argument for your position would be that both are useful, but in different ways.
"(a good rule of thumb is AT LEAST 24 hours after you got rid of the last bit of muscular soreness)"
Again this is highly debateable.
"my lifting and cardio training have always been based on fight training, not bodybuilding. like matt hughes,"
So are you attempting to argue here that "fight training" is better than bodybuilding for MMA? It's probably wise to shy away from this sort of approach. It doesnt take a college degree (or a high school degree for that matter) for someone to say to you: "But Matt Hughes was a long time dominating UFC champion." Seems like an endorsement to me. (Keep in mind here that i'm assuming Matt Hughes trains as a "bodybuilder" which i neither know for certain, nor do i believe).
" i've gained about a 100 pounds of solid muscle, at the same height and bodyfat%. "
This sounds extremely improbable.
"doug can attest that i'm a lot leaner than i was at the UFC (and stronger too)."
I havent payed much attention, but you look the same to me. shrug
"people frequently tell me i'm the strongest person they've ever rolled with. i have been manhandled by good athletes with superior technique and leverage,"
Well, you're a big guy. You would be better served in your training by other 280 lb guys who arent at all impressed by your strength, don't you think?
WT,
"And, truth be told folks, he spends most of his time in the gym doing concentration curls and flyes. And making his pecs "dance". "
I do the curls and pec dancing for the ladies.
-doug-
Oh, and PS to Gannon,
Since we havent debated before, be aware that this is purely a discussion. In no way am i trying to "show you up" or be an asshole. If i come across as such, please pay no mind.
ttt