i've been kicking this idea around lately as well, as using a PCT protocol in lieu of an actual cycle, or TRT. (more or less, based off the research in using clomid in TRT as a standalone)
i think combining Tamoxifen (or even Toremifene) and Aromasin could possibly double testosterone levels.... both have been shown to exert an increase in testosterone in healthy men by about 60% individually...
one issue i could see, is lowering estrogen too much, and having some joint issues and other side effects.
i think one way to avoid this, is to start with Aromasin for 2 weeks (it kicks in fast, with a 60% increase in test in 10 days), and transition to the SERM (tamoxifen or toremifene), which have been to work pretty quickly as well, but continue to increase testosterone for up to 2-3 months.
this would keep estrogen from getting too low, and should minimize the side effects. the increase might not be as high as it would be in "stacking" them, but a 60% increase is still pretty significant.
it would look something like this:
Weeks 1-2:
Aromasin-25 mg/day
Weeks 3-12
Nolvadex-20 mg/day or Toremifene-60 mg/day
Here's a thread i started over in the Health/Medical section, that covers some info on the PCT drugs:
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/thread/2283832/PCT/?pc=6
Why do you want to do this? 
1800champagne - Why do you want to do this?
well, while this would obviously not compare to an actual cycle, one would be able to see gains compared to a younger version of themselves. plus, no actual suppression, as well as it being more of a legal "gray area"... and cheaper and more effective than OTC testosterone boosters.
for me, i'm getting older (late 30's), and i know that i'm not in the TRT range yet (i've had my test levels checked). but, it would be nice to get a hormonal boost to what i was a couple years back...
.
Your fucking around with your hormone levels for what IMO will be very little benefit, with a large chance of serious sides like crashing your E, killing your Libido etc.
Seriously man I wouldn't bother
But I'll say this, there's been studies done where low dose clomid has been used on men with low test levels as an alternative to TRT and has proved effective. But as I said the performance benefit is practically nil.
Something along the lines of 12.5 - 25mg every other day or everyday is the doses they used
TwoCanVanneDamne - But I'll say this, there's been studies done where low dose clomid has been used on men with low test levels as an alternative to TRT and has proved effective. But as I said the performance benefit is practically nil.
Something along the lines of 12.5 - 25mg every other day or everyday is the doses they used
they used 25 mg every day, and doubled their test levels.
http://www.ergo-log.com/clomid-testosterone.html
these used 25-50 mg, EOD, and doubled their test levels;
http://www.ergo-log.com/clomiphenehormonetherapy.html
doubling one's testosterone is pretty significant, especially considering they will just return to normal levels after treatment.
TwoCanVanneDamne - Your fucking around with your hormone levels for what IMO will be very little benefit, with a large chance of serious sides like crashing your E, killing your Libido etc.
Seriously man I wouldn't bother
doubling test levels for several months won't have any benefit? i don't think you understand how significant this can be, especially considering that this can have very few side effects...
SERMs
http://www.ergo-log.com/nolvabest.html
Aromasin
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14671195
Comparison of various doses of testosterone:
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172
BshMstr -The subjects had low testosterone levels to begin with so the clomid only got them to a normal level.TwoCanVanneDamne - Your fucking around with your hormone levels for what IMO will be very little benefit, with a large chance of serious sides like crashing your E, killing your Libido etc.
Seriously man I wouldn't bother
doubling test levels for several months won't have any benefit? i don't think you understand how significant this can be, especially considering that this can have very few side effects...
SERMs
http://www.ergo-log.com/nolvabest.html
Aromasin
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14671195
Comparison of various doses of testosterone:
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172
I don't know what your levels are or even if you have symptoms of low test but doing what you are suggesting will not yield any great sporting performance benefits, or at least any that are worth the potential sides your risking. If you have normal test levels it will not double them (your LH levels will rise very high, most likely more than double but there's only so much test your testicles can produce regardless of the LH signal they are receiving).
But by all means go for it man if that's what you want to do
TwoCanVanneDamne -BshMstr -The subjects had low testosterone levels to begin with so the clomid only got them to a normal level.TwoCanVanneDamne - Your fucking around with your hormone levels for what IMO will be very little benefit, with a large chance of serious sides like crashing your E, killing your Libido etc.
Seriously man I wouldn't bother
doubling test levels for several months won't have any benefit? i don't think you understand how significant this can be, especially considering that this can have very few side effects...
SERMs
http://www.ergo-log.com/nolvabest.html
Aromasin
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14671195
Comparison of various doses of testosterone:
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172
I don't know what your levels are or even if you have symptoms of low test but doing what you are suggesting will not yield any great sporting performance benefits, or at least any that are worth the potential sides your risking. If you have normal test levels it will not double them (your LH levels will rise very high, most likely more than double but there's only so much test your testicles can produce regardless of the LH signal they are receiving).
But by all means go for it man if that's what you want to do
well, i appreciate your concern, as i think you're trying to help, but i don't think you're looking at the data.
the SERM link showed that tamoxifen can nearly double test levels, in relatively healthy men with "lowish" levels...
here's some data that shows a direct relationship with test levels and body composition:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/563154_3
The effects of testosterone supplementation in the ageing male. The description of age-related sarcopaenia in the setting of the decline in serum testosterone in older men, and the knowledge that testosterone replacement increases FFM and muscle volume in young hypogonadal men, has led to the hypothesis that testosterone therapy in older men will increase FFM and skeletal muscle and may subsequently improve quality of life by increasing strength and stability. The largest placebo-controlled trial to test the hypothesis that testosterone supplementation in the older male will improve muscle mass and/or strength found that over 36 months of treatment, an increase in mean serum testosterone from 12.7 to 21.7 n M led to a 1.9 kg (3.5%) increase in lean mass; linear regression analysis showed an inverse relationship to pretreatment testosterone levels. [31] There was no demonstrable effect on dynamometric measures of muscle strength, although subjects with the lowest baseline testosterone levels reported that they perceived their physical performance to be improved. Other placebo-controlled trials have documented increases in lean body mass of 1.5--4.0 kg ( Table 1 ). In the majority of these studies, baseline testosterone levels have been in the low normal young adult range and increased to within the upper part of the reference range. Duration of therapy may be important in predicting the magnitude of demonstrable effect, [32] and greater increases in lean body mass are seen in those studies employing supra-physiological androgen treatment regimens. [33, 34, 35] This is consistent with a recent study of graded doses of testosterone administered to healthy older men (rendered hypogonadal with a long-acting GnRH agonist) who, akin to the younger cohort previously studied, [29] demonstrated a dose-dependent increase in FFM, with no evidence of a plateau effect; [36] the observed magnitude of increase in FFM was comparable for the young and older men (+7 to 8 kg or 12% increase from baseline). Of note, older men had a greater increase in serum testosterone than young men at set doses of testosterone, suggesting that older men have reduced testosterone clearance and may therefore potentially experience an enhanced tissue effect at a given testosterone dose. The increase in lean body mass has been linked to a decrease in muscle protein breakdown [35] and an increase in muscle protein synthesis. [37] Functional correlates of this increase in muscle mass are uncertain, [38]although measures of muscle strength assessed in short-term studies do suggest benefits with treatment. [39, 40, 41] Dihydrotestosterone [42] and human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG) [43] over a 3-month period have also demonstrated improvement in selected aspects of muscle strength. While the favourable changes in FFM consistently demonstrated in short-term controlled studies may have important sequelae with regard to physical functioning, to date only surrogate predictors (strength, activity) of the desired end effects (for example, independent living, prevention of falls) have been studied.
BshMstr -I think you misunderstood the point I was making. I agree it'll work, I even pointed out the success of the clomid study I'd read but from a sporting performance perspective I don't think it'll make that much of a difference to YOU because you've said yourself your levels aren't really low to begin with.TwoCanVanneDamne -BshMstr -The subjects had low testosterone levels to begin with so the clomid only got them to a normal level.TwoCanVanneDamne - Your fucking around with your hormone levels for what IMO will be very little benefit, with a large chance of serious sides like crashing your E, killing your Libido etc.
Seriously man I wouldn't bother
doubling test levels for several months won't have any benefit? i don't think you understand how significant this can be, especially considering that this can have very few side effects...
SERMs
http://www.ergo-log.com/nolvabest.html
Aromasin
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14671195
Comparison of various doses of testosterone:
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172
I don't know what your levels are or even if you have symptoms of low test but doing what you are suggesting will not yield any great sporting performance benefits, or at least any that are worth the potential sides your risking. If you have normal test levels it will not double them (your LH levels will rise very high, most likely more than double but there's only so much test your testicles can produce regardless of the LH signal they are receiving).
But by all means go for it man if that's what you want to do
well, i appreciate your concern, as i think you're trying to help, but i don't think you're looking at the data.
the SERM link showed that tamoxifen can nearly double test levels, in relatively healthy men with "lowish" levels...
here's some data that shows a direct relationship with test levels and body composition:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/563154_3
The effects of testosterone supplementation in the ageing male. The description of age-related sarcopaenia in the setting of the decline in serum testosterone in older men, and the knowledge that testosterone replacement increases FFM and muscle volume in young hypogonadal men, has led to the hypothesis that testosterone therapy in older men will increase FFM and skeletal muscle and may subsequently improve quality of life by increasing strength and stability. The largest placebo-controlled trial to test the hypothesis that testosterone supplementation in the older male will improve muscle mass and/or strength found that over 36 months of treatment, an increase in mean serum testosterone from 12.7 to 21.7 n M led to a 1.9 kg (3.5%) increase in lean mass; linear regression analysis showed an inverse relationship to pretreatment testosterone levels. [31] There was no demonstrable effect on dynamometric measures of muscle strength, although subjects with the lowest baseline testosterone levels reported that they perceived their physical performance to be improved. Other placebo-controlled trials have documented increases in lean body mass of 1.5--4.0 kg ( Table 1 ). In the majority of these studies, baseline testosterone levels have been in the low normal young adult range and increased to within the upper part of the reference range. Duration of therapy may be important in predicting the magnitude of demonstrable effect, [32] and greater increases in lean body mass are seen in those studies employing supra-physiological androgen treatment regimens. [33, 34, 35] This is consistent with a recent study of graded doses of testosterone administered to healthy older men (rendered hypogonadal with a long-acting GnRH agonist) who, akin to the younger cohort previously studied, [29] demonstrated a dose-dependent increase in FFM, with no evidence of a plateau effect; [36] the observed magnitude of increase in FFM was comparable for the young and older men (+7 to 8 kg or 12% increase from baseline). Of note, older men had a greater increase in serum testosterone than young men at set doses of testosterone, suggesting that older men have reduced testosterone clearance and may therefore potentially experience an enhanced tissue effect at a given testosterone dose. The increase in lean body mass has been linked to a decrease in muscle protein breakdown [35] and an increase in muscle protein synthesis. [37] Functional correlates of this increase in muscle mass are uncertain, [38]although measures of muscle strength assessed in short-term studies do suggest benefits with treatment. [39, 40, 41] Dihydrotestosterone [42] and human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG) [43] over a 3-month period have also demonstrated improvement in selected aspects of muscle strength. While the favourable changes in FFM consistently demonstrated in short-term controlled studies may have important sequelae with regard to physical functioning, to date only surrogate predictors (strength, activity) of the desired end effects (for example, independent living, prevention of falls) have been studied.
But it's up to you, I've said my piece and I'm not looking to argue with anyone, I hope I'm wrong and it does make a good difference for you, good luck if you decide to try it out
TwoCanVanneDamne -BshMstr -I think you misunderstood the point I was making. I agree it'll work, I even pointed out the success of the clomid study I'd read but from a sporting performance perspective I don't think it'll make that much of a difference to YOU because you've said yourself your levels aren't really low to begin with.TwoCanVanneDamne -BshMstr -The subjects had low testosterone levels to begin with so the clomid only got them to a normal level.TwoCanVanneDamne - Your fucking around with your hormone levels for what IMO will be very little benefit, with a large chance of serious sides like crashing your E, killing your Libido etc.
Seriously man I wouldn't bother
doubling test levels for several months won't have any benefit? i don't think you understand how significant this can be, especially considering that this can have very few side effects...
SERMs
http://www.ergo-log.com/nolvabest.html
Aromasin
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14671195
Comparison of various doses of testosterone:
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/6/E1172
I don't know what your levels are or even if you have symptoms of low test but doing what you are suggesting will not yield any great sporting performance benefits, or at least any that are worth the potential sides your risking. If you have normal test levels it will not double them (your LH levels will rise very high, most likely more than double but there's only so much test your testicles can produce regardless of the LH signal they are receiving).
But by all means go for it man if that's what you want to do
well, i appreciate your concern, as i think you're trying to help, but i don't think you're looking at the data.
the SERM link showed that tamoxifen can nearly double test levels, in relatively healthy men with "lowish" levels...
here's some data that shows a direct relationship with test levels and body composition:
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/563154_3
The effects of testosterone supplementation in the ageing male. The description of age-related sarcopaenia in the setting of the decline in serum testosterone in older men, and the knowledge that testosterone replacement increases FFM and muscle volume in young hypogonadal men, has led to the hypothesis that testosterone therapy in older men will increase FFM and skeletal muscle and may subsequently improve quality of life by increasing strength and stability. The largest placebo-controlled trial to test the hypothesis that testosterone supplementation in the older male will improve muscle mass and/or strength found that over 36 months of treatment, an increase in mean serum testosterone from 12.7 to 21.7 n M led to a 1.9 kg (3.5%) increase in lean mass; linear regression analysis showed an inverse relationship to pretreatment testosterone levels. [31] There was no demonstrable effect on dynamometric measures of muscle strength, although subjects with the lowest baseline testosterone levels reported that they perceived their physical performance to be improved. Other placebo-controlled trials have documented increases in lean body mass of 1.5--4.0 kg ( Table 1 ). In the majority of these studies, baseline testosterone levels have been in the low normal young adult range and increased to within the upper part of the reference range. Duration of therapy may be important in predicting the magnitude of demonstrable effect, [32] and greater increases in lean body mass are seen in those studies employing supra-physiological androgen treatment regimens. [33, 34, 35] This is consistent with a recent study of graded doses of testosterone administered to healthy older men (rendered hypogonadal with a long-acting GnRH agonist) who, akin to the younger cohort previously studied, [29] demonstrated a dose-dependent increase in FFM, with no evidence of a plateau effect; [36] the observed magnitude of increase in FFM was comparable for the young and older men (+7 to 8 kg or 12% increase from baseline). Of note, older men had a greater increase in serum testosterone than young men at set doses of testosterone, suggesting that older men have reduced testosterone clearance and may therefore potentially experience an enhanced tissue effect at a given testosterone dose. The increase in lean body mass has been linked to a decrease in muscle protein breakdown [35] and an increase in muscle protein synthesis. [37] Functional correlates of this increase in muscle mass are uncertain, [38]although measures of muscle strength assessed in short-term studies do suggest benefits with treatment. [39, 40, 41] Dihydrotestosterone [42] and human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG) [43] over a 3-month period have also demonstrated improvement in selected aspects of muscle strength. While the favourable changes in FFM consistently demonstrated in short-term controlled studies may have important sequelae with regard to physical functioning, to date only surrogate predictors (strength, activity) of the desired end effects (for example, independent living, prevention of falls) have been studied.
But it's up to you, I've said my piece and I'm not looking to argue with anyone, I hope I'm wrong and it does make a good difference for you, good luck if you decide to try it out
maybe i wasn't clear, so that's my bad..
i know i'm not in the range YET, but i am getting older, and starting to feel a lot older than i am.
if i try this out (which i prolly am), i'll update this with my results...
There are some health risks with long term use of Clomid. Thats why a new version (Androxal) that is only using the isomer relevant for TRT is in phase 2 trials at the moment
GSPsShadyHandWraps - There are some health risks with long term use of Clomid. Thats why a new version (Androxal) that is only using the isomer relevant for TRT is in phase 2 trials at the moment
yeah, plus the vision sides, emotional issues, etc...
i'm not planning on using clomid, but looking more at toremifene, as it seems to have the least sides with comparable benefits. tamoxifen seems to have less sides than clomid as well, but other sides that tore doesn't...
i personally find clomid to be inferior then the rest of the SERMs anyway, as it decreases one's response to GnRH....
If you're going to self medicate, why not just go with test cypionate?
BlueDream - If you're going to self medicate, why not just go with test cypionate?
injectable test would shut down his natural production. By using Clomid, he can increase his testosterone production without getting shut down
I can understand his logic. Many doctors seem to follow the same reasoning. Im not sure if the benefits are worth the risk though.
Personally i would rather wait a few more years and then get on TRT, with a good doctor it has minimal side-effects
and by using HCG etc at the proper time, you can still have children
GSPsShadyHandWraps -BlueDream - If you're going to self medicate, why not just go with test cypionate?
injectable test would shut down his natural production. By using Clomid, he can increase his testosterone production without getting shut down
I can understand his logic. Many doctors seem to follow the same reasoning. Im not sure if the benefits are worth the risk though.
Personally i would rather wait a few more years and then get on TRT, with a good doctor it has minimal side-effects
and by using HCG etc at the proper time, you can still have children
yup.
i could be wrong about the effectiveness of a SERM here, but i'm quite amazed how few people have tried it. i dug through the web quite a bit, and didn't really see many who had actually tried it...
TwoCanVanneDamne - But I'll say this, there's been studies done where low dose clomid has been used on men with low test levels as an alternative to TRT and has proved effective. But as I said the performance benefit is practically nil.I used clomid 50mg for 2 weeks I think, followed by 25 mg for another 4-6 weeks and made a huge difference
Something along the lines of 12.5 - 25mg every other day or everyday is the doses they used