Picking a GRAND PRIX division

Underground
1

Hi all,

Let's talk for a bit about where to slot yourself for your experience division for the Grand Prix. Let's also talk about sandbagging and the Grand Prix policies to stop it.

First the Beginners: If you read the Grand Prix experience divisions you'll notice a shift in the beginner division to 1 1/2 years and under. This was made for a few reasons. First most guys with less than 6 months don't have the confidence to compete yet. So the catagory mostly applies to only a 6 month span (guys with 6 months to a year). This needs to be bigger.

Also for the amount of contact in grappling the insurance industry feels we need to have guys learning for at least 6 months before competing. We still want the catagory to cover a year of competitors, so it's changing to 1 1/2 and under. Do I think this change means a lot? No, because a lot of the sandbagging we get is with this division. We're just calling this division what it already is.

Intermediate and Advanced should be straight forward.

Now, I am aware that at the beginning of the season you may be a beginner but by the time the season ends you will be intermidiate. What I want you to do is simple, HONESTLY PUT YOURSELF IN THE DIVSION YOU BELONG TO AT THE TIME OF THE FIRST TOURNAMENT OF THE SEASON.

Example 1, I have 1 year 5 months and 3 weeks experience by the time of the first tounament, you are a beginner.
Example 2, I have 1 year 6 months and 2 days experience at the time of the first tournament, you are intermediate.

HAVE FIGHTING SPIRIT AND PUT YOURSELF WHERE YOU BELONG!
You can not compete in 2 different levels either.

And yes, I'll say it again, all WRESTLING, BJJ, JUDO, SAMBO and any other grappling art counts.

BAD Example 1, I have fifteen years of wrestling but only 6 months of BJJ, so I'm a beginner, right? No, your an asswhole.

Good example 2, I have 2 years of wrestling but only 3 months of BJJ so I must be Intermidiate. You are obviously a smart, handsome fighter with good fighting spirit.

How will we stop sandbagging?

Well all competitors are now going to be in a database. So you can only compete as a beginner 1 year. Second season you are automatically kicked to intermidiate.

Intermidiates who accomplish a certain amount of points will be kicked next season automatically to advanced, because they have proven their ready. Max number of years allowed in Intermediate is obviously 2.

This should help properly sort divisions.

What do you think boys?

Terry

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I have fifteen years of wrestling but only 6 months of BJJ, so I'm a beginner, right? No, your an asswhole

Quote of the century

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Warrior I had a thread going at the start of the year asking what division to compete in.I asked my coach Fateh and two of the senior bjj guys at the club.They both advised me to compete in a novice tournament first.This was a gi tournament.I won all of my matchs and the next tournament I went in Intermediate.I lost 1 match and placed second.The next tournament I lost one match to your clubs Jason Barker and placed third.I believe someone made a comment about your guys and the divisions they were competeing and you said they were in the divisions you advised them on.I guess I and the athletes you advise are asswholes for listening to their coaches??Who but your coaches knows better then where you should compete.Yes I want to compete advanced no-gi but my Gi fighting is still in need of improvement.
Just so you know Canario competed in novice at the cja and lost to one of your students as well.
I think your asswhole comment was un called for.

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I did compete in Novice and lost....mostly cause I suck.

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Would you two stop it, kiss and make up for Gods sake.

Deafwoody, I didn't call you an asswhole, I'm lol you think it applies to you. I think you must have guilt issues. But the forum is not the place to confess. You need a priest who does BJJ.

I actually was thinking of the time Big Joe from our club fought this guy from the states. After he beat my guy in the beginner finals he told me he had 15 years wrestling (and it showed), Newton was beside me and told the guy he was a coward. I thought there was going to be fight right there.

Anyways, about your coaches guidence, it was wrong, the rules are straight forward, follow them.

Sure I advise my guys, I advise to be in the right divisions, cause if their not papa Terry's going to not be happy. And they know what that translates too.

Yeah, Jason Barker fights intermediate because he is. Last year he fought beginner, I don't understand why your singling him out?

Sure there are tough cases to decide but within reason.

Let's say you trained for 1 year, took a year off, and came back for 3 months then your beginner. But if trained for a year, took a year off and have been back for a year then your intermediate.

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I agree maybe I have some guilt issues.I thought it was directed at me.My problem has always been dealing with the gi.As far as no-gi I will be competeing in advanced at the gta's and if I was healthy would be competeing at the Joslins.
I was just pointing out that it was your student (nothing aimed at Jason) who beat me.

I just think someone switching sports requires you to know what you are dealing with.And A gi is something new.Anyways you will all find out if I belong in advanced or not in Dec.

Good luck to all in Joslins.

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Also Deafwoody,

I look at it that even though Gi may be new for you and I commend you on always learning new stuff, your balance skills and holds are pretty much straight transferable from one sport aspect to the other; that's why the experience rules are as they are.

Terry

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ttt

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Coaches want their students to win. sometimes so the gym looks better, so I'd say it's possible there would be a coach or two in existence that would advise his or her students to fight in an easier division.

And I can say for sure, that with my nine years of bjj experience, that I am both a beginner, and an asshole.

Cheers

10

The BJJ community's egotism is to blame for a lot of the sandbagging
in their tournaments. Example, at Joslins a few years ago one of our
guys with six months BJJ experience went and competed. He explained
to the organizers that he had wrestled for 15 years, but they in their
smugness assured him that his 6 months of BJJ only made him a
beginner.

They probably chuckled to themselves about this poor deluded fool
thinking that some "wrestling" experience would help against the killer
BJJ guys out there. He won, easily, and caused some guy to go ballistic
in the no-gi division when he was thrown.

That all being said, yes sandbagging has become an issue that will not
necessarily go away, but will have to be controled in some way.

11

ouch

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Hi Sled Dog,

Man I can't beleive you guys feel comfortable admitting this stuff publicilly. I'd be really embarrassed.

I remember when Kask K accused me of sandbagging Wojtek Kazzowski into intermediate, one of my students told me about the comment and I immediately thought "Holy Crap", did I cheat? How embarrassing. Then I thought about it and I figurered "wait a minute", I did the math and he started with me January 03. He still isn't even advanced today.

Why I mention it is because Wojtek asked me where to compete and I thought about for only a split second because I know he is a Intermediate player. I could have potentially screwed up.

So I beleive, forget what anyone tells you, everyman or woman has to be responsible for his/her own integrity. Do the math, put yourself where you properly belong.

15 years into beginner? I'm sorry that's disguisting, no matter what anyone told him.

How can you be proud of your accomplishments, if in the long run, you don't even believe in them yourself?

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Sandbagging would be eliminated if you did away with the categories for experience. Why not make sure the weight classes are there for everyone - and go from there. Decide who the best is at his or her weight. Someone just starting should not expect to be the best. But they can compete and keep trying. Sounds like good incentive to keep grappling and eliminates sand bagging. Allow people to compete up a class or two if they want to if not enough matches are available otherwise.

To reduce weight-cutting - which I think ought to be taken seriously as grappling skill is what is at issue - weigh-ins should be literally just before walking on the mat. That is, less than 5 minutes before.

For kids, forget age and experience also - just focus on weight. Start at say 39.9 and have 10 pound increments all the way up. Allow kids to fight adults also by having very light weight classes for adults also.

All of above applies to women.

Too much focus is on winning. Focus on EXCELLENCE and things should fall into place. True, I suspect you would have reduced numbers of competitors but this would be distinctive in being a SERIOUS competition, that allows for all to compete fairly within their weight class, and to truly test themselves. Sandbaggers and pussies may stay home. But that sounds good to me.

I suspect you may need sponsorship for such a Grand Prix. Get the thing on T.V. and you may have get some sponsors with money.

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You're all a bunch of teabagging asswholes...I mean sandbagging

"Hey guys guess what I did this weekend? I just became BEGINNER grappling champ of Canada!" lol How could you seriously be proud of this unless you just started this year.

If you are proud of this you might as well go out and buy a replica UFC belt while your at it. Then you can wear it around everywhere because you're seriously not competing for the love of the sport or to become a better martial artist, you just want to look good.

15

Warriormac,

Sandbagging is trying to go into a division lower than you are supposed to or have the experience to enter. Our wrestler was DIRECTED to the beginner division by the tournament organizers. He never indicated a lower experience level and inquired whether or not it was the correct division for him. He was assured that it was correct (smugness, remember). I have no fear recounting how this occured in the past. Do you think we should have lied? Your smugness amuses me too. We have always fought the sandbagging thing to the degree where our guys will fight up weight and over experience to get a better fight. And we win. The matter I brought up was to illustrate how smug the BJJ community was as to their supposed superiority over wrestling, judo, etc. untill recently and how they did not even think of it as sandbagging unless the opponent had more experience in BJJ.

BTW our guy though so much of his "win" that he did not even bother to pick up his trophy belt.

Everyone has post-event 20/20 eyesight and can identify the errors everyone else made following the directions as requested. Lets see how perfect you will be. Good luck.

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Sled Dog, in the defence of the tournament, this incident happened I think in 2001 correct? I think it was one of the first years Joslins had such a big tournament. I think its safe to say that every single person at every single registration at every tournament, might just be volunteering there time and might know exactly know too much about the exact particulars of the sport. Those who did wer probably refereeing.I think maybe this issue should have been brought up with the promoters that day, as im sure maybe they would have gladly tried to fix the problem.

Regardless, the more we look back at mistakes made, the less we are doing positive. Lets look to the future, where this problem will now be reduced thanx to this apparent system being implemented!!!

I cant wait!

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In defence of Sled Dog - who sure would not need my help - from all reports, this incident happened precisely as he indicated. Plus, the competitor did not bother, as he states, to pick up his belt. This would suggest, the important igredient here, namely, an intention to deceive, was not there. In fact, it appears they did their level best to avoid such a situation.

Time to look ahead for sure, but I do not think the onus is on anyone to know who the 'proper' people are in order to clear up such a situation. If you run a tournament, then run it with people that know what's what. In 2001, as in 2005, this contingency was not unknown or far-fetched. There are still people asking how to proceed under comparable situations.

Do away with experience levels and let's determine who the best grapplers are. If we want to be as inclusive as possible, let's get the kids and women represented with the full compliment of weight classes.

Plus, kids and women should pay the same amount as anyone else. If women need to enter free in order to compete, let 'em stay home. Same with the kids. They utilize the whole mat when the compete just like adult men. They should pay the same amount.

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Good points, I say do away with the gi divisions as beginner, intermediate advanced. The majority of grapplers are now doing BJJ so lets go by belt. If they are not, than have a system set for them, like white belt equal to beginner, blue belt would be intermediate, and have purple/brown/black mixed as advanced.

There are many formats we can follow such as the Grapplers Quest and NAGA events in the U.S. as they seem to be doing pretty good.

By the way, theres no onus to find the promoter of the event, but based on the tournaments name, JOSLIN, I dont think it would be hard for someone to figure out who to speak to!

Ive been involved with the tournament for years and have seen firsthand the organizers of the tournament jump right in to help and aid in a situation as this. Last year Mr. Joslin himself did this in an actual situation of sandbagging, as a fighter was competing in the intermediate division, but fought in an advanced level competition just prior to this.

Grappling Politics + this forum = nothing getting done!

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Hold on everybody,

This is not an attack on the Joslin tournament. I have respect for the tournament and for Jeff personally and wish them the best of luck. In fact I will be there with the team to cheer them on tomorrow. I only brought up the situation to address the phenomenon known as sandbagging. Using a large and well respected tournament to illustrate that these things can happen despite everyone's best intentions.

We have called out many "beginners" at our tournaments and required them to move up a division or have disqualified them.

They have represented mainstream schools. So what do you do when it is not only the participats but their coaches that are pulling this stuff? How about the teacher that lets his less competent student fight at a lower class because they "couldn't handle" a higher one? At what point is this support and not sandbagging?

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to sandbag or not, tis the question!

anyways, so check out the revamped www.ontariograppling.com website and feel free to send me videos or pics to post on the site from the tournament tomorrow!