Pillow Fighting

"what exactly does my join date have to do with anything?"

MMA fanboys call boxing pillowfighting here rather frequently. I surmised that you didn't know that because you've only been here a year and have 104 posts.

"You clearly aren't to financially astute, but look at it like this."

I'm financially astute enough to realize that the top boxers make way more money than the top MMA guys. Since you're clearly some sort of investment wizard, maybe you can tell me why Tito Ortiz held out for "boxing money."

P.S. Like MMA undercarders, salesmen who don't sell a lot often find themselves looking for other work. Your analogy isn't valid.

If boxing is so irrelevant to MMA, why does everyone from the top level to the bottom level, train it? They all work together. The sweet science is a major component of MMA.

"So you want to essentially compare the strongest side of your argument? surely if you looked at what the average fighter made (not the big boys as they'll do well either way, all be it better in boxing), that would be a fairer way to compare the two sports?"

what is an average fighter? I'm talking about HBO fighters and UFC fighters. What are you talking about? If you want to account for EVERY athlete, then when comparing baseball players salaries you'd have to account for every single little minor league player in existence as well. Every sport has a large number of guys at the very bottom that make little to no money, but when people compare basketball/baseball/and football salaries they don't compare all the rinky dink minor leagues, they compare the NBA/MLB/NFL. Likewise, I'm comparing what fighters make on HBO vs. what fighters make in the UFC. I can't think of any simpler way of comparing them.

HBO fighters still make WAY more money overall than UFC fighters. Showtime fighters make well more than K-1 MMA fighters make. ESPN2 fighters likely make well more than KOTC fighters make. Etc.

"Tito Ortiz held out for "boxing money." "

I'm not arguing that the top boys make more, we all know they do, they are the facts.

From the start all I have been trying to do is compare the midrange fighters, but you seem to only want to compare what the top 5 make. I've given you that, yes the top boxers make way more than the top MMAer's, you've shown nothing that says the lower fighters make more in boxing however.

I'm not even saying that the lower lever (below top tier) fighters in mma make more, I was just interested in seeing some facts and figures as I would think that there isn't too much difference.

"HBO fighters still make WAY more money overall than UFC fighters. Showtime fighters make well more than K-1 MMA fighters make. ESPN2 fighters likely make well more than KOTC fighters make. Etc.


"

Ok now we're getting somewhere. So ignore the top 2 fighters on a card (I know you dont want to, but humour me), then tell me what the rest of the fighters make? Some figures for HBO fighters (against examples if possible) would be good?

Here are some figures from the latest WEC

Title Match & Main Event Fighters
-Urijah Faber: $20,000 (defeated Chance Farrar)
-Chance Farrar: $4,000 (lost to Urijah Faber)

Main Card Fighters
-Alex Karalexis: $10,000 (defeated Josh Smith)
-Rani Yahya: $10,000 (defeated Mark Hominick)
-Brian Stann: $8,000 (defeated Craig Zellner)
-Mark Hominick: $6,000 (lost to Rani Yahya)
-Craig Zellner: $2,000 (lost to Brian Stann)
-Josh Smith: $1,000 (lost to Alex Karalexis)

Preliminary Match Fighters
-John Alessio: $18,000 (defeated Alex Serdyukov)
-Brock Larson: $16,000 (defeated Kevin Knabjian)
-Cub Swanson: $8,000 (defeated Micah Miller)
-Alex Serdyukov: $6,000 (lost to John Alessio)
-Jeff Bedard: $6,000 (defeated Mike French)
-Charlie Valencia: $6,000 (lost to Brian Bowles)
-Brian Bowles: $4,000 (defeated Charlie Valencia)
-Micah Miller: $4,000 (lost to Cub Swanson)
-Mike French: $3,000 (lost to Jeff Bedard)
-Kevin Knabjian: $2,000 (lost to Brock Larson)

Disclosed Fighter Payroll: $134,000

Here are some figures for a past ufc

Title Match & Main Event Fighters
Chuck Liddell: $500,000 (18th fight in UFC)
vs.
Quinton Jackson: $225,000 (2nd fight in UFC after 17 fights in Pride)

Main Card Fighters
Karo Parisyan: $32,000 (9th fight in UFC)
vs.
(W)Josh Burkman: $7,000 (6th fight in UFC)

(W)Terry Martin: $12,000 (4th fight in UFC)
vs.
Ivan Salaverry: $17,500 (6th fight in UFC)

(W)Kalib Starnes: $10,000 (3rd fight in UFC)
vs.
Chris Leben: $10,000 (9th fight in UFC)

(W)Houston Alexander: $8,000 (1st fight in UFC)
vs.
Keith Jardine: $7,000 (6th fight in UFC)

Preliminary Match Fighters

(W)Din Thomas: $28,000 (7th fight in UFC)
vs.
Jeremy Stephens: $3,000 (1st fight in UFC)

(W)Wilson Gouveia: $16,000 (4th fight in UFC)
vs.
Carmelo Marrero: $5,000 (3rd fight in UFC)

(W)Thiago Silva: $16,000 (1st fight in UFC)
vs.
James Irvin: $7,000 (5th fight in UFC)

(W)Alan Belcher: $14,000 (4th fight in UFC)
vs.
Sean Salmon: $3,000 (2nd fight in UFC)
Disclosed Fighter Payroll: $920,500

Steven Molen
http://mma.komikazee.com

The vast majority of boxing cards are designed around the two headliners, not around the organization as is the case with the UFC. The top boxers are usually headlining their own cards, not fighting on somebody else's undercard.

If you want facts, make a list of all the boxers who've headlined an HBO or Showtime card and compare with the guys who've headlined UFC or Pride cards.

From the initial post:

"If boxing gloves are nothing more than soft, silky smooth pillows, wouldn't our hypothetical Xyience Puncher be able to hold his own in the ring with Kelly Pavlik, Bernard Hopkins or Lamon Brewster?"

All of those guys will be headlining cards so discussing what undercarders make is irrelevant. If boxing gloves are pillows, why don't MMA guys switch to Queensbury rules and make PPV headliner money, without any of those nasty bruises and sprained ankles that happen in the cage?

Bluenamer, please assist:

http://www.alexallied.com/wp-content/uploads/_LYNXjet_pillowfight.jpg

pillow biting

"Ok now we're getting somewhere. So ignore the top 2 fighters on a card (I know you dont want to, but humour me), then tell me what the rest of the fighters make? Some figures for HBO fighters (against examples if possible) would be good?"

you still don't get my point do you? I'm talking about HBO, ESPN, and Showtime fighters, i.e. the fighters that are actually SHOWN on HBO, ESPN, and Showtime. HBO airs fight cards of two fights. Same with Showtime. ESPN airs fightcards of about 4 fights. What undercard fighters make are irrelevant because they do not represent the HBO roster as they are not shown on HBO. Those fighters do not have contracts with HBO. UFC fighters, on the other hand, represent the UFC roster as they are actually SHOWN and have contracts with the UFC.

So again, compare the paydays of the 70 or so actual fights SHOWN on HBO in a given year on both regular HBO and HBO PPV with the 70 or so UFC fights SHOWN throughout the year on PPV or Spike and try and tell me that the UFC paydays anywhere near what HBO is paying it's fighters. To bring up what non-televised boxers make vs. what televised UFC fighters make is pointless as they are not on the same level in their respective sports.

if JeffMcFluffy wants to know some figures of what typical HBO fighters make, you can look at Jermain Taylors average purse (averages about $3.5 million a fight over his recent fights), Cotto (made about $3 million, Judah at least $1.5 million), Mayweather ($5 million a fight), Klitschko ($4 million a fight), Shannon Briggs ($1.8 million his last fight), Pacqiao (about $2 to $3 million a fight for the last 4 years), Winky Wright ($2 to $3 million a fight over the last 3 or 4 years), Mosley, Vargas, Barrera, etc. all the same, in the $2 to $3 million a fight range. Those are just the main event fighters. Usually the undercard fights (televised of course) have a combined purse of at least $400 to $500 000.

So again, the average salary of the TELEVISED fighters on ANY HBO show is gonna be well higher than the the TELEVISED fighters on any UFC show. They are not even close.

"havokk, Keith Kizer has stated on the forum that DeLaHoya has had events where he has made 10 million for his fight and not one fighter on the undercard made more than 7K."

Really, I'd like to know what cards those were because ALL of DLH's big PPV fights were on HBO and I have never seen any HBO PPV where the co-main event featured two fighters making in the neighbourhood of $7 000. I find that very hard to believe. Hell, Butterbean fought on most DLH undercards and was making more than $7 k, same with Mia St. John. It was common practise for Arum to put a lot of his young stars on DLH undercards, and most of them have very FAT contracts with Arum.

I just took a look at all of the DLH undercards dating back to his fight with Trinidad and there is no way some of the names on those undercards were only making $7 000. Guys like Erik Morales, Cotto, Castillo, Pacqiao, etc were fighting on them well into the period when they were also headlining regular HBO cards (meaning they were well passed the point where they would be taking ANY fight for a measly $7 000).

DarthMolem has brought the correct.

"It was the Mayorga card. Kizer listed all the payouts for the card and 7k was the top amount besides Mayorga/DLH."

There is no way Kasim Ouma was only paid $7 000 for that undercard fight. Ouma made a big deal this year in turning down $50 000 to fight on the undercard of DLH/Mayweather and that was after coming off a loss to Taylor. No way he would have agreed to fight for as little as $7 000 the year before. If his purse was listed as $7 000 it was either a mistake or they paid him most of it under the table.

Ooops, wrong thread. I thought this one was about "pillow biting"

It conviniently loses this termology whenever a bjj fighter uses this methodology en route to victory (even though chants of "joojheetsoo!" can be heard by the victor's camp thereafter).

"not one fighter on the undercard made more than 7K."

Completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. If boxing gloves are silky smooth pillows, why don't MMA guys go fight Oscar, Jermain Taylor, Bernard Hopkins or Lamon Brewster and make PPV headliner money without any chance of injury?

PS thanks DarthMolen