I saw a clip of a cop doing a choke demo. It looked really bad. What gives? Why do they have to do that kind? I understand it's a "safety" thing but I mean a choke is a choke.
I thought cops were not allowed to choke...
only in deadly force situations.
"only in deadly force situations."
Most depts allow their officers to respond to force with a level of force equal to, and one step above, the threat level they face.
So if a suspect is assaultive towards me (punching, kicking, etc) I can justifiably use the same and greater levels of force against him.
This would allow me to choke out someone if they were fighting my partner. The thing to remember, is that the minute they lower their level of resistance, we are required to lower our's accordingly as well.
There are numerous factors that can affect the view of "justified" force too. A woman weighing 100lbs, and all of 5' tall swinging at me, would not justify my using a baton upside her head to gain compliance.
Age, skill level, weight, strength, etc (on my part, or that of the suspect) are all factored into the decision making process as to whether or not too much force was used.
So if someone punches you, your department allows you to choke them out?
All I know is that if you "Choke" a person in a street fight in California, it is considered attempted murder.
"So if someone punches you, your department allows you to choke them out?"
Under our guildlines, a suspect punching me is being "assualtive". In response to assualtive behavior towards me, another officer, or a victim, I can use punches, kicks, and higher (including deadly force) levels to gain control of the situation.
Me personally? Good question. I worry about this often in all honesty. Despite the fact that I am a middle of the road guy at the dojo (better than some, worse than others) I have been training for some years now, and that's what scares me.
A good attorney could portray me as some sadistic "expert martial artist" and it might sell. Nevermind that I am about a .500 level fighter in our dojo wars.
This impression could lead a jury to believe that I should've been able to do some kinda George Dillman nerve pinch or something to control a crook.
However, my training might allow my attorney to successfully convince the jury that I knew what I was doing and was able to safely control said suspect without much risk of serious injury or death.
Like I said, there are numerous factors that weight in on the final determination as to whether or not you used too much force.
(Sadly) There's no really clear line that you can judge what situations would justify deadly force, and which one's wouldn't. It's a judgement call, and it's one that you have to make (normally) without any warning or time to think it over.
You make a decision and hope that it's the best one.
I have a friend i train with that is a cop and he recently got in a little trouble for showing "modified" choke techniques that he learned in class.. its pretty funny though. He has a new story every week about choking someone out.. he works in a town thats prodominatly thugs.. Muskogee OK, if you can believe it.
The only law enforcement officer I have personally trained who got into trouble for excessive use of force, quit jiu-jitsu and started boxing. Within two years, he was fired. Suffice it to say that it was not his jiu-jitsu techniques that got him in trouble.
Use of force statutes are different in every state. Every department has its own policy on use of force. There is no easy answer as to whether an officer can use a choke against an aggressor. If it was easy to decide, we wouldn't need judges, lawyers or jurors.
For instance, in my state, an officer cannot use a "vascular restraint", unless all other methods of force have been used. That's in a statute Local departments, however, have policies that forbid the use of "vascular restraints."
For instance, in my state, an officer cannot use a "vascular restraint", unless all other methods of force have been used." This doesn't make sense. You should be able to use any kind of choke for a "deadly force" situation.
foot to the throat works wonders!
chadk is right ot he money. I have used some BJJ hold, throws and superior position and as long as you can justify what you did, your PD should back you.
crowbar posted: "All I know is that if you "Choke" a person in a street fight in California, it is considered attempted murder."
I think that would depend on the circumstances. If you were defending yourself or a family member, I think it could fly. You would have to stop, once the attacker stopped attacking. If you continue when your attacker is done, you become the attacker.
Gary Hughes
yeah im nervous about it as well our policy and procedures are same as chadks and i know a guy who did a rear naked on a guy who attacked him during a stop, the problem is all the paper work and stuff afterwards because its not something that the dept teaches in the crap defensive tactics, they need to adapt to fighting in 2004
In my agency here in NC, any type of attack to the neck is considered lethal force. So needless to say, chokes aren't slapped on people around here. If they are, they are covered up in some manner.
TTT for the guys who have to worry about whether or not to choke out a crackhead, at the risk of being sued.
MayheM
A punch to the face is often considered lethal force and can be reciprocated with gunfire. The logic behind it is that a single strike to the face could render an officer unconscious and therefore leave him to the mercy of the attacker. So, if you get punched in the face, lethal force is justified...that does not mean that it is the only or even the most commonly used response, but it is justified. When it comes down to it, many officers do not use enough force when it is justified and get themselves hurt. They are concerned about hurting the person or more likely concerned about being second guessed and sued.
This information was provided to me by "oral" statements made by a police officer that responded to a domestic violence call.
Let's be careful how we throw out the term "choke hold". In Law Enforcement it is not synonymous with holds thats restrict blood flow to the brain. They are seperate and distinct, one much more invasive than the other.
Comparisons like this although interesting, are very difficult, because each jurisdiction has varied laws and appellate court decisions, as well as department policies dictating the actions of their officers.
Some areas are much more pervasive than others. I can tell you I have rendered several violators unconscious through various means. I have been sued but never disciplined or lost in court due to excessive force. So let's be professional, write good reports, act within the law and department policy, and stomp mud holes in those who truely desere it. It's a beautiful thing when a court upholds your actions, and the local ACLU representitive has to admit you were right.
In Washington State, MOST Police Departments consider any type of neck restraint deadly force. Also, it is not referred to as a "choke," it is referred to as a Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint(LVNR).