How effective is rooster in causing people to drop the trinity?

I need to know because I have very little time to devote to this place and if he has converted no one to his side then I can effectively ignore him on this subject and spend my time more wisely.

Also, m.g and JoshuaB will probably be interested in this information so as to judge whether or not they want to spend the time combating something that is in essence completely ineffective for doing harm.

So let's have it:

Is any one buying roosters take on the trinity?

-Tom Bombadil

Not me!

Ok that's one! Anyone else?

-Tom Bombadil

Nope...he would have a better change at getting me to castrate myself, which isn't going to happen.

"Is any one buying roosters take on the trinity?"

*Devlish grin*

Well... now that you mention it... I'm buying it.



Actually, I haven't read too much of what Rooster has written about it. But if he's against the idea of the trinity and favors a mono God, I'm with him on that.


Trinity is hot.

lets kick both roosters and Neos ass and get her.

How effective is rooster in causing people to drop the trinity?

From what I can tell he is 0% effective.

Is any one buying roosters take on the trinity?

Not me, plus I haven't seen anyone else buy it.

No, Rooster hasn't changed my mind with any of the arguements. Every argument he has presented has a scriptural answer, and one that orthodox christianity has traditionally used. Therefore I find no new substance within the arguments being used, and nothing new to consider.

Not me.

It does me! All kidding aside, this is a theological exercise that can certainly be ignored. However, the issues surrounding the defining of the godhead have been controversial since the beginning of Christianity. I hope that my challenges to this doctrine, done with a sincere belief that it is wrong, will either cause someone to pause and reaffirm the strict monotheism of the bible or if it only reconfirms what they believe...well, I guess in their mind, that's a positive!

Josh, you mentioned that you haven't seen or heard anything really new that the scriptures don't answer...great. but I have yet to have certain questions regarding the trinity answered. I usually get a particular verse ignored and then another verse utilized that is supposed to "negate" rather then harmonize.

For instance, not one trinitarian has ever been able to tell me why Isaiah said in 9:6 why it is appropriate to call, proclaim, shout (according to the original word) the Son as El Gibbor (Might God) and Ad Ab (Everlasting, Eternal FATHER). The bible records that we only have one Father. Now, what I usually get is someone quoting Jesus praying, or someone saying, "well, that's one verse" or some attempt to say, well he's not *the* Father, but just the Father of Eternality ?!!?!

I have yet to have someone give me the Trinitarian interpretation of this verse. Thanks!

Well, I haven't read anything specific about that. But I can try to answer it for you. I think I can handle it.

Isaiah 9:6 is the one verse in the entire Bible that gives Christ the title 'Father' and is therefore seized upon by Oneness adherents as 'proof' that Jesus is God the Father. First, this verse could also be translated 'Father of eternity', or 'Father of the ages' (even your Oneness theologians will agree to this).

The Hebrew word for Father (av or ab) is used in accordance with Hebrew and Aramaic custom where the one who possesses something is said to be the father of it. For example, Abialbon (2 Sam. 23:31), 'father of strength', means 'strong'; Abiasaph (Ex. 6:24), 'father of gathering', means 'gatherer'.

If we are keeping with the Hebrew custom, the title 'everlasting Father' is simply declaring the eternal nature of Christ. This understanding of that verse is consistent with the Trinitarian belief that Christ is the one true eternal God, who transcends time and eternity (Rev. 1:8, 17).

Again, its not a new argument, and it certainly proves nothing scripturally, and certainly not a good reason to abandon a commonly understood doctrine of orthodox christianity.

He will be a father to the mortal nations in the Kingdom Age.

Isaiah prophesied, "he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah . . . and they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house." (Isa. 22:21-24).

Like the relationship between a father and son, Christ will exercise justice, wisdom, might, and knowledge (Isa. 11) toward the mortal population.

Father-like characteristics are illustrated in the letters of the Apostle Paul: "I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers . . ." (1 Cor. 4:14, 15); "As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children." (1 Thess. 2:11).

Although believers are usually referred to as "brethren" (e.g., 1 Thess. 2:14; Heb. 2:11) it is not inappropriate to term them "children". For example: "I and the children which God hath given me." (Heb. 2:13 cf. Isa. 8:17, 18).

Christ is the father of these children since he is the means whereby they are born anew. (John 3:3, 7).

This is the seed which Christ shall see and be satisfied. (Isa. 53:10, 11 cf. Psa. 45:16 - The Messianic character of this Psalm is indicated by vs. 6 and Heb. 1:8, 9 where it is quoted in a context referring to Christ.)


Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? (according to John 1:1 all things were created and made by Jesus-even His own body!)

Mat 23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Tom, the references in Isaiah 22 futher refer to his spiritual fatherhood! Jesus HAD NO CHILDREN! As such, He is our Spiritual Father.

All references to Fatherhood when applied to God are talking about God The Father. How can Jesus be God and be worthy to be called Father, and yet there is another divine being who is also God who is also "father"? Now you have two divine beings, both called God, both called Father, YET NOT THE SAME BEINGS?!?!

I actually think your reference above could have been written by a modalist. I think I will save it for later referencing. There is One Father (not a group). Jesus is not Father and God the Father, Grandfather! There is One Spirit that made all things (including His own mortal body) and as such, that Spirit is "Father".


You said "usually get a particular verse ignored and then another verse utilized that is supposed to "negate" rather then harmonize"

I tried to harmonize, and not negate, and I did so in such a way as to support my position in a biblical manner. It now sounds to me that the charge you carry against the polytheist trinitarians is the same charge you have just made yourself guilty of by utilizing another verse.

Josh, typically my verses, or questions are ignored. Tom did a wonderful job of responding to a direct question. He did not ignore it. Kudo's. I actually think he strengthened my point (it's not incorrect to call Jesus, father, as Isaiah did).

I have a pointed question Josh. In heaven, is there one individual being or a group of divine beings sitting next to each other? Thanks!

One being. 3 personalities, separate and distinct from one another. They interact with each other and creation in specific very distinct ways. God in three persons as you think of it would limit this, but its an issue of langauge, and Oneness has as many of those as we do.

You should read my comment on "person" in the Who is God thread. I think its a good defense of why I can say this. I would be intrested in Toms idea of what i was explaining there as well.

Josh, if you view God as one Being who has revealed Himself in 3 (and more ways) then we are in agreement. however, if you view God as 3 personalities interacting with one another, I don't agree with you. I view this as very confusing. You have one being yet 3 beings? What do you mean by personality?

Do you believe in one divine being sitting next to another?

If you believe in One Being, period, we have no qualms. If you believe in divine beings as a group morphing into One Being (?!?) then I want to better understand this God you say the bible reveals.

still (to steal a term from my friend) "puzzled"


Read the Who is God thread for my answer.