This is a follow-up thread to "Dana White is partly right about Fedor". Even though I talk extensively about Fedor, the take-home message also applies to how we assess MMA fighters in general.
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People need to distinguish legacy from skill. Fedor beat a good number of ranked and great fighters. The best? A few of them: Mirko, Nog, Sylvia and Arlovski.
But Coleman, Randleman, Hunt, Schilt, Ogawa, Valacicius, Choi, Nagata, Zulu, Fujita, Goodridge and Lindland were just not the level of competition which would allow one to conclude that Fedor was categorically better skillwise than any other fighter in the division, or even in lower divisions. This is why the question of how many 'ranked' opponents he beat, how many times he was undersized, and how many years he went undefeated, are all deliberately rhetorical tactics which obviate the crucial points. Namely, the quality of the competition, whether the additional size made for an advantage (Choi? Giant Silva?), and the consistency of his fighting (spending 10 years fighting a plethora of dubious opponents as well, and also not competing as often within that time frame).
I don't think anyone disputes Fedor was rightfully ranked on top, and he is the most accomplished HW of all time to this day. But this is not to say he was as good as people thought, i.e. that he was better and would beat anyone in the world at the time. Seeing how fighters like Ricco or Barnett fared against Nog, or Gonzaga/Kongo against Mirko, Couture against Sylvia, makes one wonder whether he actually 'beat everyone' like many claim. In fact, he didn't. He certainly didn't beat Sergei, Werdum, Barnett, Ricco, Rizzo, Couture, Bigfoot; and these are plenty better than the names I mentioned. And from the present days, he certainly didn't beat JDS, Brock, Mir, Overeem, among others. I think he would win some of those fights and drop others, but that's irrelevant. The point is at no moment did Fedor actually prove he was on 'another league'; he simply beat a few of the top fighters in the world, but by no means the majority of top ranked fighters at any time. Beating Nog and Mirko, or Arlovski and Sylvia, or Coleman, is very impressive, but it surely doesn't mean you'll defeat the other guys I mentioned. In fact, the only top 5 fighters Fedor fought in his long reign were Herring, Nog x 2, Mirko, Arlovski and maybe Sylvia. Compare this to Pierre to beat Hughes x 3, Shields, Fitch, Alves, Penn, Trigg, Koscheck x 2... in far less time. So the whole 10 year reign is deceptive, and that he didn't fight these people for political reasons or otherwise is irrelevant.
People talked as if Fedor was not just rightfully ranked on top, which he was indisputably, but as if he was the best HW on the planet. And I think the inconsistency with which he fought competition, albeit sufficient to make him the highest ranked fighter with the results he had, simply do not determine this. To say otherwise is to assume that had he fought Werdum, Henderson, or Bigfoot 'back in the day' he would have not lost, which is excuse making dwelling on how Fedor 'only lost because he is past his prime'. It is a way for the nutthuggers to say that the 'Fedor that was known as the best' never actually lost, and that the fighter who lost these last fights did so because: he is too old, he threw strategy off the window, lacked motivation, had lesser speed, etc. Were you even to suggest Henderson or Bigfoot could beat Fedor three years ago you would have been the laughing stock. So yes, he was overrated.
Truth is, Fedor's wide gaping hooks have been present since long, and his high risk game diving into guards and throwing looping punches have been there as well. If anything his punching technique got far more solid since he started competing in the states, and knocking people out. People forget before the Sylvia fight Fedor was criticized for never having KO'd anyone. And for those who think he was never as 'reckless' please go watch his fights with Ogawa, Hunt, Goodridge, and tell me he fought a more reserved game than he did with Henderson.
That the slew of fighters he has faced recently capitalized on his mistakes, and that this happened in a row, is perhaps no less a matter of luck than it was that he managed to stay all those years on top. Truth is, had Fedor fought Henderson, Bigfoot or Werdum in his so-called prime, he would have faced the same problems and the same risks.
Those who think Fedor can no longer do what he used to are underating him, while creating this mythical ideal 'FEDOR' who can now be untouchable in the memories, and remains the best of all time. It's a way to deny that he ever lost genuinely. The truth is much more straightforward: he made a tactical mistake with Werdum diving into his guard (which Barnett explained very well), he was completely outworked by a huge fast and technically sound man in Bigfoot (when had Fedor fought such a competent well rounded fighter before? This is not Schilt, Sylvia, or Choi), and was matched in wrestling and handspeed/power by a notoriously excellent, sharp and tough Henderson.
Fedor did what he does best, throw big punches, stalk his opponent trying to close the distance by forcing them into defensive and then going for upper body clinch takedowns, and or GnP offensive if connecting with his hands. That Hendo was able to escape from the back door and drop Fedor with a big hand, or that Werdum's guard was not shaken off by Fedor's torque and short neck, has nothing to do with Fedor's deterioration.
It's not like GSP where he pretty much wrecked every top 5 ranked fighter in the division for the past few years. Fedor fought many ranked guys who entered the ranks on flash occurances like Hunt or Randleman after their wins over Mirko, or Rogers after the flash KO over Arlovski. Nobody in their right states of mind would suggest these are top tier opponents. Henderson, however, was, because he has the kind of KO power and resilience that can match people at higher weights. Bigfoot is enormous. And Werdum, although i'd pick Fedor in a rematch, capitalized on Fedor's recurrent aggressiveness.
To say anything besides, like in that ridiculous 'when did things start going wrong for Fedor?" is just to start making excuses at the most convenient times.
Excellent post.
I can see where you're going from the title alone and you're right.
Good post, good luck with it though.
Personally I would not even say Fedor is necessarily the most accomplished, though. Nog has a comparable or better list of wins, likewise won Rings and Pride titles, and has also won a UFC title. The only thing Fedor has over Nog is those two decisions over him. Still, Nog dominated two guys (Werdum and Henderson) who both finished Fedor in the first round. He finished Crocop. He beat Coleman when Mark was #1 and coming off his win over Igor, while Fedor beat Mark 2.5 years after Nog, when Coleman had fought only once in those 2.5 years (a snoozer over unranked Frye). He finished Schilt.
Basically Fedor fought guys Nog had already beaten, guys who weren't worth much, and Arlovski. Then he got finished by two guys Nog dominated. Nog also beat Barnett, Ricco, Kharitonov, and Randy.
Beating Nog, and having a long streak, are the reason Fedor is held in such awe. His actual good wins are less impressive overall than Nog's, and he has lost to lesser fighters than Nog did.
"Fedor fought many ranked guys who entered the ranks on flash occurances like Hunt or Randleman after their wins over Mirko, or Rogers after the flash KO over Arlovski."
100%
None of those guys have ever looked impressive before or after those lone big wins, except maybe Randleman a hundred years ago when he layed and prayed his way to a UFC championship.
Thanks for the positive feedback :)
orcus - Good post, good luck with it though.
Personally I would not even say Fedor is necessarily the most accomplished, though. Nog has a comparable or better list of wins, likewise won Rings and Pride titles, and has also won a UFC title. The only thing Fedor has over Nog is those two decisions over him. Still, Nog dominated two guys (Werdum and Henderson) who both finished Fedor in the first round. He finished Crocop. He beat Coleman when Mark was #1 and coming off his win over Igor, while Fedor beat Mark 2.5 years after Nog, when Coleman had fought only once in those 2.5 years (a snoozer over unranked Frye). He finished Schilt.
Basically Fedor fought guys Nog had already beaten, guys who weren't worth much, and Arlovski. Then he got finished by two guys Nog dominated. Nog also beat Barnett, Ricco, Kharitonov, and Randy.
Beating Nog, and having a long streak, are the reason Fedor is held in such awe. His actual good wins are less impressive overall than Nog's, and he has lost to lesser fighters than Nog did.
^^^^TRUTH!!!! 
frat
orcus - Good post, good luck with it though.
Personally I would not even say Fedor is necessarily the most accomplished, though. Nog has a comparable or better list of wins, likewise won Rings and Pride titles, and has also won a UFC title. The only thing Fedor has over Nog is those two decisions over him. Still, Nog dominated two guys (Werdum and Henderson) who both finished Fedor in the first round. He finished Crocop. He beat Coleman when Mark was #1 and coming off his win over Igor, while Fedor beat Mark 2.5 years after Nog, when Coleman had fought only once in those 2.5 years (a snoozer over unranked Frye). He finished Schilt.
Basically Fedor fought guys Nog had already beaten, guys who weren't worth much, and Arlovski. Then he got finished by two guys Nog dominated. Nog also beat Barnett, Ricco, Kharitonov, and Randy.
Beating Nog, and having a long streak, are the reason Fedor is held in such awe. His actual good wins are less impressive overall than Nog's, and he has lost to lesser fighters than Nog did.
Solid, solid post. Refreshing to see on this message board for change. .
Huh, reasonable discussion.
Didn't expect to find that, here.
I copied and pasted into google 4 trollish translate:
Bla i wish I had watched Pride instead of UFC as a kid. bla bla I am somehow hoping to gain congratulations on my long post. Bla bla bla I wish I had bigger penis. Bla I hope Dana f white jr sees this