It is if you're good enough at them. People can't just jump guard, they need to set it up in some fashion, and while they're trying to set it up, you take them down.
laqueus - It is if you're good enough at them. People can't just jump guard, they need to set it up in some fashion, and while they're trying to set it up, you take them down.
So who would you suggest is good enough at them? Because I've never seen a competitor at any level that could avoid a jump/sit to guard with any consistency.
Takedowns work mostly when both guys want top, but when someone is happy with bottom they usually have no problem taking it.
Sit to guard maybe not, but if they're doing that from a distance there really isn't anything you can do, and from that point you're working at standing guard passes. Jump to guard they have to grab you first, and then you start working unbalancing and go for a throw right off the bat.
As for who's good enough, Judo black belts and brown belts. I'm quite good at pulling guard, but they can beat me to it and get the takedown some of the time.
Gurgel showed somewhere a way to jump up with the knee the moment a guy tries to pull closed. Could have devastating consequences with the no cup rule:)
laqueus - Sit to guard maybe not, but if they're doing that from a distance there really isn't anything you can do, and from that point you're working at standing guard passes. Jump to guard they have to grab you first, and then you start working unbalancing and go for a throw right off the bat.
As for who's good enough, Judo black belts and brown belts. I'm quite good at pulling guard, but they can beat me to it and get the takedown some of the time.
No offense, but it doesn't really sound like you have ever tried to score takedown points on a guy who wanted to pull guard from the beginning.
If a Judo guy goes for a throw after getting a half ass grip the guard puller will be in transition and than points are a judgment call. A judgement call that the thrower usually loses.
These days any kind of grip fight that alerts your opponent that you MIGHT know more than he does on the feet results in a baseball slide half guard pull which is almost impossible to avoid if the throw initatior is appropriately engaged.
Not to mention that these days a lot of guys just midget walk to their opponent anyway.
My point isn't that guard pullers suck. My point is that BJJ was not designed to be conducive to takedowns. Good throwing technique will not get you around this fact.
joshjitsu -sanchezero - just connect your elbow and knee. then pass.
wow sounds easy
sure, it sounds easy. kinda like when you have the underhook in half - 'take the back' sounds easy.
still, it's kindofa good place to start. knee and elbow together and they can't effectively close up. you can drop right down into a combat base ready to cut, slice, smash, unders, etc.
do you still have to know jujitsu to make it a viable beginning? sure.
Calibur1980 -
No offense, but it doesn't really sound like you have ever tried to score takedown points on a guy who wanted to pull guard from the beginning.
That's beside the point, I've had people score takedown points on me when I tried pulling guard from the beginning. I'm pretty good at pulling guard and guard work, if someone can pull that off on me, it does work.
If a Judo guy goes for a throw after getting a half ass grip the guard puller will be in transition and than points are a judgment call. A judgement call that the thrower usually loses.
Depends on the ref, which then also depends on the team since some refs are biased. Obviously if you have a Judo guy in a BJJ competition there's a decent chance that they'll get a ref who's biased against them. Not terribly much you can do at that point. I'm talking about when you have an unbiased ref.
These days any kind of grip fight that alerts your opponent that you MIGHT know more than he does on the feet results in a baseball slide half guard pull which is almost impossible to avoid if the throw initatior is appropriately engaged.
Got a link to that? If it's that foolproof I want to learn it. In my experience, if you're gripping with a good Judoka and they're aggressive you're flying almost right after gripping up.
Not to mention that these days a lot of guys just midget walk to their opponent anyway.
That's an expression I haven't heard. Is that crouching down so your head isn't much higher than your knee??
My point isn't that guard pullers suck. My point is that BJJ was not designed to be conducive to takedowns. Good throwing technique will not get you around this fact.
Well ultimately if a guy buttscoots right off the bat there is literally nothing you can do about it, except get good at passing guard. If you're looking for a solution to that it's hopeless. I was talking about situations where you actually do have a shot.
"saulo also shows the collar and belt grip on his second gi set.
it's worked well for me except against really long-legged guard jumpers."
This is precisely why I have experimented with grabbing the pant leg. If you are grabbing the belt, you have already taken a rather defensive posture. Why not both prevent the guard and get the points?
Also, in a addition to the good video suggestions above, check out Marcelo.
Man. I LOVE it when people pull guard. I mean damn they just gave me top position...I'm puzzled at the frustration?? Maybe people should spend more time practicing their passing.
Yes of course josh getting top by default is sweet IMO too but....
I would rather throw them and be in side control or mountand get my points for the throw. Passing is good to but... if I can prevent them establishing guard or use their guard pulling against them I'd like to know how.
No Cup+ Viagra.
great tip, John, thanks. i'm definitely going to experiment with the leg grip.
Judo Scott - Yes of course josh getting top by default is sweet IMO too but....
I would rather throw them and be in side control or mountand get my points for the throw. Passing is good to but... if I can prevent them establishing guard or use their guard pulling against them I'd like to know how.
What belt level? If leg locks are allowed then go for one right as they pull guard and mix it with a guard pass. If you land a few people will be apprehensive about pulling. If leg locks aren't allowed then try to keep standing as armlocks are harder on someone who isn't on their knees, and while leg locks are easier they're not allowed so you're really not at risk. The second isn't as much taking advantage of it as it is reducing the risk of having someone pull guard. Also, I've found guys who do weight lifting, especially squats have very good posture in guard and are harder to work on, so you can do that, and while again not taking advantage of it you limit their ability to take advantage of it.
Also, since it's important to know guard passing anyway, shoot in for a double or single right away against someone you know will pass guard. Yeah, you end up in guard, but it's an easy two points for you, and the guard pass is 3 points so your benefit of working on the guard pass is guaranteeing yourself 5 points right off the bat, compared to just 2 points if you take them down straight into side mount. If you work knee on belly into that, going for some chokes and if they're not successful going into mount and working a steering wheel/gift wrap to take their back you have a very effective point progression. Pulling guard, unless they're doing a pull half guard sweep, pass, knee on belly etc isn't really a points strategy, so if you're working a big point lead into your game you can stay comfortable with your lead and wait for them to make mistakes, while they'll be fighting and taking risks to get the submission. I've seen some matches go badly where the guy pulls guard, goes for a triangle, gets passed the top guy gets 3 points, he reguards, triangle, gets passed. The guy on top racked up a 15 point lead just defending triangles really. The point system really doesn't favour guard pullers.
sprawling actually works good, but timing is key. you can see Jacare used to do it a lot in competition when people try to pull guard on him.
grab the pants while standing, this way if he sits, you get points for takedown
"Gurgel showed somewhere a way to jump up with the knee the moment a guy tries to pull closed. Could have devastating consequences with the no cup rule:)"
A BB at my club used to drop to combat base with the knee up when people tried to jump guard on him. It hurts me just thinking about it.