I keep seeing things about a time limit in Judo Ne waza (in contest held under IJF rules).
Aint' no such thing. The "rule" (interpretation, really, or custom) is that ne waza can continue as long as there is progress by one or both players. Progress can be slow and incremental, or rapid and explosive.
The key is to keep moving towards a goal/target in ne waza. If you stop for a breather, expect a standup. If you are just rolling around and not trying for anything, expect to be stood up, maybe not quite as fast depending on how experienced the ref. is.
It helps to keep up movement on the ground, using it to create opening, and using the pin/choke/armlock triangle along with the movement. It requires that you train that way in practice, too.
One strategy common in Judo, especially higher level events, is to get ahead by less than ippon, then, everytime you go to the ground, get busy, stay on top and stay active. It's a form of stalling that better refs. recognize and stop.
I have heard talk of this utopia.:)
Quincy wrote:"I have heard talk of this utopia.:) "
Michigan is apparently ne waza purgatory,or maybe hell in shiai at least.
Well that depends more on who you are.
Not everyone in michigan is restarted like that...
If they where, I would not even be upset as then I wouldnt feel singled out and screwed on purpose...
Well in Michigan Judo, I've been told a few times while working out when WMU had a club, and at the local YMCA.
I always approached Judo with a wrestling mentality, knock you down, hopefully get an ippon, if not, pin to win. Then as I learned submissions, it became, knockdown, pin then move for sub.
To which I was told by a few 'If you want to wrestle, go wrestle' or 'if you want to do jujitsu, do jujitsu'.. and concluded with 'this is judo'.
I mean I kinda understand in a way, however, I believe that if other arts have something to add to Judo, and they use it in a shiai, it deepens judo, not taking something away from it.
Maybe they just don't want to see anyone doing what they consider 'not judo'... I've know a few wrestlers who've gotten very bad calls in Michigan Judo, I mean textbook Ippon fireman's carry's, but only getting Koka-Wizari for it because the did it like a wrestler (Change levels, drop knee, and then over)
Maybe they see you as a wrestler..
They see me as a jiu-jitsu guy actually Kai.I find that funny since I dont study jiu-jitsu.I think they dont see what judo is.
Anyway here is a funny story,
At the Great Lakes I entered both the 173 and the 198lb division (thinks thats what it is lbs).
I ended up going against this big bulgarian guy..I tried a throw,slipped, and turned back in to my guard,I went right to a juji....soon as I start to get it they restart the bout "Matte"....He looks at me and says "Jiu-Jitsu,huh?" and smiles.....
Then he just pimped me on grips to win the rest of the bout and avoided ne-waza or throwing at all costs....
Anyways,I felt like saying "Actually,I heard it's called judo,you should try it sometime".
Since when is juji, jiu-jitsu? and I then realized alot of sport judoka dont even understand what judo is....Did he expect I was gunna try and catch his 198lbs of muscle on a throw and teguruma him? lol...my god.
There is no such thing as allowing me to progress in ne-waza around here.Rickson could not tap white belts in the time they give me...There is no such thing as ne-waza outside of osaekomi-waza anyway...and thats only because the rules basicly prohibit them from restarting during the pin..If they could I wouldnt be winning that way either...
The people who say
"if you wanna wrestle, go wrestle.if ya wanna do jiu-jitsu, do jiu-jitsu."
need to read their rule book IMO and they need to quit watering down the game.This quote means one thing,you are close minded and mad about losing.
My judo instructor last summer was in the Olympics for judo (and placed 3rd in the 81 world champs to boot). His brother was in the Olympics for freestyle wrestling and placed 4th in the 84 one.
As a result, the club (Takahashi Dojo) was more than open to people banging, even though it was a traditional club (their father founded it, and he is/was really old-school and knew how to fight with it as a result).
Michigan just sounds like hell for judo :o(...with the exception of a couple of clubs that visit this board of course.
Actually there are some other great schools and instructors here too....Saito Dojo, Southside dojo and couple others.
Southside for example helps train all kinds of grapplers and has their own ne-waza aces...Saito is legit as they come and on his mat he lets judo reign supreme with no bias what so ever...I wish they where all like that..
Wow; you can't even use juji-gatame? Who's in charge of refs? Rod Serling?
If it works in what? Sometimes the devil in in the detail.
my point was that the rules of the competition in judo differ from what they actually let ya do.If it works and is ok by the rules dosnt mean they are gunna give ya a chance to do it.sport judo is whacky like that.
Maybe judo tournaments should have two periods: 3 minutes of tachiwaza, 3 minutes of newaza. This way the throwers will be forced to learn more groundwork and the grapplers will be forced to learn more throws.
faxia, that oppinion is the same oppinion our senior ref in our state had when I wrote to him on the subject...
Quincy, which part of the opinion ? I'm assuming the first part.
I agree with most of what is being said here. Though there is a rule addressing progress, usually when the action hits the ground, most refs call matte far too quickly. And, I agree that there seems to be a great deal of close mindedness regarding what is/is not judo.
Ben, well he has a very "judo" way to how he writes so it wasnt as dramatic as the first point faxia made but yes it was the first point's message that he seemed to agree with...
I don't have the email anymore to cut and paste but to paraphrase,
He thought it was more of a problem of the referees not understanding what the rules to judo are and going off preconceived notions and personal ideas of what they believe it is or want it to be..
He stated that the referees are volunteer so when he and others run clinics on these issues,they can not force them (as volunteers) to come and learn properly.
If he did, he would risk losing the referees that keep the judo tournies going..They are volunteer so if you make all these demands to attend clinics,no one will want to do it.
I didnt see it as a solution to the problem I wrote to him about and I believe he was covering for the bias he knows exists (in a way he has to in his situation), but I know he is very private and thinks out carefully every word he writes as to keep himself clear of problems from any side.In the tone of what he wrote I knew he would be on the look out for it,even if he didnt say it.That was enough for me at the time..
Unless your just trying to drag the guy to the ground a comment like that is way out of order. But most refs like to see you at least try to throw your opponent first.
Unfortunately there is a serious shortage of referees that know what progression in Newaza is. You'll find a lot of American refs are just people that got involved with Judo because of their kids, and some of them took to judging because it was a way to get rank. Many don't have enough Judo experience to understand a lot of the techniques they're looking at.
This is a problem that goes all the way to the Olympics.
"This is a problem that goes all the way to the Olympics."
How many olympians do you hear complaining about not enough ne-waza time???
You'll have to ask the Olympians yourself as I don't play with the big boys anymore and I don't know their current attitudes.
Most of the complaints were coming from those same old Judoka's you guys have been talking about in the other threads and a few Class A Olympic referees. The complaints about were about referees in general and how poor quality judging is changing the face of Judo in general.
I will share that my own experiences at the local level in New England concerning referees was not always the best. On many occassions their lack of understanding of Newaza technicians did change the outcome of the match. Sometimes in my favor most times not. Many of those refs were Class A a few did ref at the National Level. There were a lot of Olympic hopefuls in the New England area that did like Newaza at the time I was competing. I sure they had the same feelings.
I have also had the pleasure of having Terry Takamori (Jason Morris's fiancee) as a ref and she understood Newaza technique. And most of the older Japanese refs would let you go as long as you want. Those matches were the best because I got to develop all of my technique.