Here's another I think is about Jesus - let me know if you think I'm wrong
Proverbs 30:4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down?
Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands?
Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and the name of his son?
Tell me if you know!
Man I love Proverbs!
why do you isolate this line from the chapter?
why not just paste the entire OT here? I didn't edit or cut any parts of it. I found a passage of the bible that I think refers to Jesus.
also - Proverbs is full of....proverbs. pieces of widsom from different authors. I doesn't read from beginning to end.
when it says "Who has established all the ends of the earth?" that can only be GOD right?
so if the next line asks about his SON, then it's God's son. doesn't matter what the rest of the chapter is about, since the second line is in the context of the first, that being about God.
ttt for it to show up
ahha!
I can understand things being out of context - even the devil used scripture wrongfully against Jesus.
But my quote is not out of context. If I posted the entire chapter, how could I highlight my point!?
that's why I included the chapter 30 of Proverbs. People can look it up themselves if they want to see the rest, but I am simply highlighting the part that I feel refers to Jesus, just like one may take a part of a chapter that refers to the Messiah. Goodnight Everyone
Oh no! A Jew rejects Jesus and all the arugments that he's the Messiah. This Jew also reads the Bible in Hebrew and demands context for every quote used in an arguement (a STANDARD technique when Talmudists debate; what is the context of the QUOTE in question is under- for that will completely affect its interp and applic).
(sigh)
30:1-6
30:1 The words of Agur the son of Jakeh; the burden. The man saith unto Ithiel, unto Ithiel and Ucal:
30:2 Surely I am brutish, unlike a man, and have not the understanding of a man;
30:3 And I have not learned wisdom, that I should have the knowledge of the Holy One.
30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in his garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou knowest?
30:5 Every word of God is tried; He is a shield unto them that take refuge in Him.
30:6 Add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Now, we have context. This is not Messianiac in any way. Agur is telling Ithiel and Ucal about Wisdom (emphasis), speech and G-d. The only way to make this into a Messianic prophecy is to look for it, for in its original context, that is clearly not Agur's meaning.
MS
MS please just tell me one thing:
WHO is this referring to?:
30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in his garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou knowest?
If the "WHO" here is God, please say 'yes'.
if not, just let me know, because that means I don't understand correctly.
Not directly. Agur is using rheotircal questions to elicit the effect that no PERSON can have the same knowledge as G-d.
Basically he's saying;
"Kids, listne to me! I suck. I don't know enough about G-d. Who can compare to all the funky stuff G-d knows?! Trusting in His words is cool."
So its not so much a commentary on G-d as it is on man.
I find MS's interpertation of this to be correct. Basically, when you read the bible with christian glasses on, your trained to think, how does this or that relate to christ, with everything in the scripture. Unfortuantely, very often these are things that are personal to us, but we must read INTO the text, because that is not something that come sout of the text, we put it there because of our own perspective.
Joshua, I think I've got to give you a big hug. Your probably the first Christian I've "met" to really articulate what Jews have been saying for years about Christians when they read the Bible.
MS,
Thanks Bro, I owe you a one too. Youve put up with my questions and always been patient and through when dealing with me, so I commend you for that.
I think that very often we christians have made scriptures say things they weren't meant to say for our own benefit. In doing this, I believe we do a disservice to ourselves by reading into the scriptures and missing what the intent of the author, and of the Almight was.
But, most christians disagree with me, its a good thing they aren't my judge ;P
I know what you mean about not looking at the OT through Christian glasses. I've been listening to a great 3 part audio disc called Judaism - a short introduction. It specifically goes though why Christians should not listen to it trying to find the answers to questions from their point of view, and that Judaism answers itself with Judiasm.
In this case, I still don't understand that why any reference to God - even a small passing one - is not subject to question. It clearly states God, and questions his son's name. So why ignore this?
whatever characters that are written before it or after, do not change the facts that:
1) God is mentioned
2) God's son is mentioned
Actually, in 30:4, G-d is specifically not mentionned. This is when Agur is asking his rhetorical questions. G-d is mentionned before and after this passage, so in context he is saying "who can compare to G-d?". And no refrence to G-d's son is made, since such an idea is void in Judaism.