It seems like that many unorthadox and illegal grips tend to give you a lot of control over your opponent and it is much easier to throw your opponent with those grips. In the sport of judo a person may only have 3 seconds to attack when using thos grips and some grips are not allowed at all. However, in BJJ there are practically no rules on gripping at all. So if a judo instructor wanted to teach a BJJ player how to be proficient at throws for their sport as soon as possible, do you think he should teach the throws from unorthadox and illegal grips from the start?
It would seem logical to throw people with whatever grip best suits their body type. The Japanese still won more competitions and had better results than the Soviets even before the rule changes (look at the results from any world/olympic games from that era at ijf.org). So I wouldn't discount the traditional grip so to speak.
just my 2 cents
Bolo,
If I were training a BJJer to purely be able to throw/takedown in a BJJ contest, where throwing to win isn't the object, I would definitly teach unorthodox grips and close contact style of Judo. Not only would it be easier to transition with control to the ground in a superior position, it would totally confuse the opponent untrained in throwing. As the BJJer isn't learning Judo for the sake of competing in Judo events, the rules of Judo shiai don't apply.
Ben R.
Learn judo, don't look for shortcuts. - Koga!
Koga maybe joking so I don't know how serious he meant his comments to be.
I think Bolo is on to something. IMHO Bolo is talking about Judo as a compete method where one is using techniques and strategies of Judo to fit any situation they are in outside of Judo contest.
So in this sense Bolo isn't taking any short cuts.
Isao Okano, in his book Vital Judo Grappling, talked about how he studied kicks and strikes and other potential variations of Judo techniques EVEN if he DIDN'T use them in Judo contest.
I think learning how to do throws with unorthodox grips (even if some of those grips are illegal in Judo shiai) just for the sake of being able to apply the throws in various situations, falls well within that the training philosophy and mindset Isao Okano talked about in his book.
Something I've always found interesting is how caught up in specific grips everyone gets. But when you are around true masters they modify the grip to the person. Kano named the throws to indicate their basic function and in those throws where grip was vital like Sode-Tsuri-Komi-Goshi which means "Sleave lift and pull hip throw" he put it in the name.
You don't really need to be "taught" various grips as they come spontaniously and naturally in Randori. You can do drills with various grips to see what fits you best.
Next time you do mat work rather than grabbing anything like a Gi or Shirt try only using your chest,elbows and arms to control your opponent. When you can effectively arm bar and opponent without grabbing his wrist with your hands (except maybe last second so he doesn't slip away) you will have the control necessary to throw effectively without an actual "Judo Gi" grip.
"You don't really need to be "taught" various grips as they come spontaniously and naturally in Randori. You can do drills with various grips to see what fits you best."
I agree to a point. You can learn alot of things spontaniously in randori. But rather than go through all that trial and error why don't you, once you've mastered the basic throws of course, learn from somebody the specifics of unorthodox grips and entries? It just seems more efficient than trial and error.
If the object is to help a BJJist improve his skills for the purpose of doing better in BJJ contests, then the training should be tailored to that purpose. That's applying Seiryoku Zen'yo in it's fullest. If the object is the lifelong study of Judo, then it's a different matter.
I'm not sure exactly how I would approach training such a person, a lot would depend on their individual characteristics.
Not that many grips are illegal in Judo, really. Some are restricted in time application without attacking, but, in reality, if you get them, you have an advantage and should be attacking anyway. Personally, I think that any non-dangerous grip should be allowed, as long as it's not being used to stall. If you can't deal with being gripped in such a manner, or get caught in the first place, then maybe you need to reexamine your training !
Ben R.
I agree to a point. You can learn alot of things spontaniously in randori. But rather than go through all that trial and error why don't you, once you've mastered the basic throws of course, learn from somebody the specifics of unorthodox grips and entries? It just seems more efficient than trial and error.
Everything comes down to how much time you have to train and who you are training with. If you are teaching a group a little instruction along with Randori is the most efficient.
Randori was designed to allow the students the oppurtunity to learn through their mistakes. Which in many cases are the strongest lessons learned. Every adaptation to Judo grips and throws has been the result of repeated randori or contest. And what I do well may not always work for you. Getting too specific can actually hinder someones progress, I find it better to just demonstrate a general adaptation and let the student develop on his own. That way the student loses their dependence on instruction and relies more on their own ability to adapt.
My main point is "Don't get hung up on grips" Grab and throw... Grab and throw... You will develop what you need to get the job done.
All that is well and good BUT it certainly
helps when a person is given guidances
and something to work with.
It seems to me a given that one will
"learn", "assimulate" and "adapt" alot of
principles, concepts, strategies and
the like on their "own".
I think it certainly helps when one is
helped along in that "process".
One "learns" on their own YET we don't
live on an island to ourselves. Certainly
we can progress alot faster IF and WHEN
we get help and guidance from those who
are much more experience than we are (and
there will always be people of that
nature around).
Help & guidance being the key words as opposed to "Taught".
I know it's all teaching and learning. But my points are try not to be so specific and ultimately "teach ourselfves with the knowledge that is shared from those more experienced than ourselves.
Very philosophical. But it works.
I agree with Ben, there really isn't very many illegal grips in judo(exceptions pistol grip or a cats paw) there is however a time limit without an attack. You can maintain say a 2 on 1 for quite along time as long as your attacking. During my trips to Russia they'd grip my belt in the front or over the back and constantly launch attacks, unnerving yes, illegal no.
Once they secure a grip they attack.
Dynamo
I teach both, standard and illegal. I tell my students how to make it very hard for your opponent to throw you by certain grips. Then I teach them the best way to grip for each throw. I do not even mention to anyone in BJJ that it is illegal in Judo, unless they want to compete in Judo.
The most important anyway, is to attack first, dont let your opponent set up for an attack....
Armhntr wrote:"The most important anyway, is to attack first, dont let your opponent set up for an attack.... "
Darned right, Dan. I get so frustrated at times with people where I now train because they can't get this through their heads. We've got students who compete at nationals and have really, really good technical Judo. But they always lose to the "better" players because after a couple of rounds because they let the other person eventually get their dominant grip, and then freak out and don't neutralize it. Happened this year at nationals, despite a lot of drilling on my part with them on how to avoid it.
Ben R.
To clarify, I agree that both orthodox (sleave and lapel on different sides, both lapels, one lapel or one sleave) and unorthodox grips must be taught. Too often, I read here of people looking for a shortcut to become proficient in judo (see threads on the use of wrestling techniques, Russian Judo, Kosen, etc.) with the idea that one only need to learn a specialized component rather than approaching judo with the idea that these are parts of a more complete art.
Should you learn unorthodox grips? Of course, many work in international competition. Should you learn them at the exclusion of orthodox grips? No, Even before the increased restrictions on grips in competition, most ippon throw in international competition resulted from "standard" throws using traditional grips. - Koga!
Learn judo, and then take what you believe or think is applicable to your BJJ game and implement it. Don't just start picking and choosing what it is you think you need or don't need in terms of learning throws. I know I used to tell Lloyd, that I don't need to learn a move because it wasn't applicable to Judo, just to turn around and find out 6 to 7 months later that a "spinoff" from that move was useful, but I was so hard headed I didn't take the time to learn it.
Learn judo in its purist form and then worry about the unorthodox grips. First learn how to throw, then learn how to grip. To be honest with you, there are not many instructors in the US who are going to be able to teach you how to grip and there are far less that are going to be able to teach you how to handle an unorthodox gripper. My gripping advice for you is - Build up your forearm strength and control the sleeve baby!!
yea.. what Dan and Rhadi said are both good ideas.
how can you teach somebody something that is unorthodox if they dont know what is orthodox to begin with? peaople learn the science and methodology of throwing from orthodox stuff, after that is earned then they can see how different things will work.
-Joshua Resnick
Ben,
How do you recommend working on defeating the grip...and the opponents control overall?