I'm trying to prove a point to someone, please bare with me on this one. So, you have a fighter that is an athlete, in shape, has the look, and has a lot of potential, but the fighter is green with one or two fights.
Would you hook your fighter up with a fight far away from home against another fighter who's;
1. Experienced with some good wins.
2. In there neck of the woods.
3. Trainer is a bad ass.
4. Trainer is their manager.
5. Trainer/manager is also the promoter of the event.
Would anyone out there as a manager let your fighter take that fight?
Would anyone out there as a manager, knowing the above facts, notify your fighter of these facts? And if didn't "really" know, wouldn't you first research these facts, then notify your fighter of them before accepting the fight.
Thank you very much, this is to help a fighter new to the sport.
While we are at it, as a manager and you are approached for a fight for one of your fighters, are these not the standard questions:
1. Who's the opponent?
2. Who do they train with?
3. When is the event?
4. Where is the event?
5. Which promotion, who's the promoter?
and then,
6. What's the pay?
7. What's the travel/hotel arrangements?
8. Is this a commissioned state?
I'm not a manager but if I were, I would be kind of sketchy about that situation and need more details. You don't want your fighter to go into some rinky dink organization against the owners guy they are trying to build and risk being involved in a tainted loss if it happens to go to the scorecards. I guess it would depend on how confident I were in the fighter, the promotion, and the promoter.
Depends on 'good manager'. I know a bit about boxing management, not MMA, but in boxing...
You have two categories of manager. One is a guy who is also a coach and brings a kid up in the sport and is a mentor, the other is just business and may coach a bit.
The father figure often will not even attempt to get the fight, and if its an option, not tell the fighter or do everything to discourage the fight if he is not ready. If the fighter is ready, the coach normally lays it all out, encourages the correct option, which in this case seems no.
The latter would push the fight. If he loses you go back to getting paid about the same, he wins he gets exposure, money, and accolades. Its risk vs reward. You hope this trainer gives hi the info, but odds are the relationship between promoter and fighter would be kept secret if it did not raise the risk much.
A huge what if is if the fight is sanctioned, pro, and what state. For boxing this is not a question as much, but MMA promoters can hand pick judges in several instances. Its something the fighter must know. Its finish or lose, and against a veteran opponent, its a lose-lose.
If I were the manager, I would dive into the details, and who would ref, what athletic body is over the events, how the other fighter has won, and see where my fighter is. A rising star on the regional scene getting smashed locally could end his chance at any future as he will always have the stigma of losing a fight to a 'so-so' opponent.
Ethan Boyle - While we are at it, as a manager and you are approached for a fight for one of your fighters, are these not the standard questions:
1. Who's the opponent?
2. Who do they train with?
3. When is the event?
4. Where is the event?
5. Which promotion, who's the promoter?
and then,
6. What's the pay?
7. What's the travel/hotel arrangements?
8. Is this a commissioned state?
The first question is who, the second is when.
Most managers then ask about money and arrangements, who the opponent trains with is most often swapped for the record.
Good event, state sanctioned, pro, and judges, refs are not an issue in this case.
Traditionalist -Ethan Boyle - While we are at it, as a manager and you are approached for a fight for one of your fighters, are these not the standard questions:
1. Who's the opponent?
2. Who do they train with?
3. When is the event?
4. Where is the event?
5. Which promotion, who's the promoter?
and then,
6. What's the pay?
7. What's the travel/hotel arrangements?
8. Is this a commissioned state?
The first question is who, the second is when.
Most managers then ask about money and arrangements, who the opponent trains with is most often swapped for the record.
As a manager that cares about their product or a manager who is business?
When I was fighting I didn't give a shit about pay nearly as much as if I was going to be someone's guppie, or if I had enough time to train, or if the promotion was good. It was always fishy if my opponent was local, and their trainer/manager also had a hand in the promotion.
Ethan Boyle - Good event, state sanctioned, pro, and judges, refs are not an issue in this case.
If you know this information, you tell the fighter, and let him choose. You do your job to inform him it could be a huge career blow or improvement. Its a lot of pressure with a new fighter, so the right thing is to let him know.
A key piece of info to tell my fighter is if I fished out this offer, or it was brought to me. If my fighter was selected, I would be damn sure to assume they had a reason.
A good manager tells his client of everything, even horrible offers unless they are insulting (In terms of pay) unless the fighter wants the fight for a personal reason.
This can be muddied with coaching roles, team roles, and other duties MMA managers play, so often it does not always unfold like so.
<blockquote>Ethan Boyle - When I was fighting I didn't give a shit about pay nearly as much as if I was going to be someone's guppie, or if I had enough time to train, or if the promotion was good. It was always fishy if my opponent was local, and their trainer/manager also had a hand in the promotion.</blockquote><br /><br />Managers care about pay more than fighters at the lowest level because a low level fighter will still have another job. A manager gets a cut. Most managers want good offers for their pocket book. <br /><br />As an athlete, pay is an issue when you need it, but not when you have a stable source of income. Every fighter fights for a different reason, a manager asks so the client can make an informed decision.
EDIT:
Another thing is the 'loss' factor. Everyone loses, and sometimes a manager may choose to toss a fighter to the wolves to break him in quickly. This isnt often, but its some staff's preference.
Key message that I appreciate that you said is, "A good manager tells his client of everything..." I would add, 'and also finds out as much as possible.'
"Another thing is the 'loss' factor. Everyone loses, and sometimes a manager may choose to toss a fighter to the wolves to break him in quickly. This isnt often, but its some staff's preference."
I don't agree that that is the right thing to do, but I see what you are saying.
Lots of good stuff here, thank you all.
How about this, the fighter gets to the event and their opponent is on a big cut but still over weight by 5lbs, and this is in the lightweight division. Your fighter is at their natural weight, and makes weight. Your fighter makes weight so will get their show money if they decline the match or not, would you still let them take the more than likely loss knowing that, as a manager, making more through getting a win is unlikely, so declining you would still get the same?
If that was too complicated, I will re-write it.
No problem. Management in MMA is even more green than the sport, where only a few know how it works and how to judge talent. Most often you dont just have a manager. He is your agent, your publicist, your coach, and even a sparring partner. It changes the subjectivity a manager should have. The sport is still small so on the smaller stage a manager would have history with local and regional promotions, making deals sketchy no matter what.
A good manager will at the very least tell you the deal looks sketchy because the guy is experienced and has legit skills.
Rarely does a manager tell the client everything, as its not needed and a manager has his own interest, to make a living. Its always a crap shoot.
As per throwing to the wolves, this happens a lot in MMA. In other combat sports you mature in the event, in MMA you get quick opportunity and it goes away due to timing and ranking inconsistency. Even if a kid is not ready, a quick opportunity can make him, or, be a stumble early on. In Ammy MMA it occurs all the time. Anderson has lost woithin his first 5 pro fights and as a boxer, Phil Davis did as an Ammy. Everyone loses, and it changes your mentality.
In MMA you capitalize off any given chance, so breaking a kid when you have zero risk and a world of reward is the best time. I'd rather lose in my third pro fight, then win five to go into the big league rather than win my first four and lose my UFC debut. But this is how it often works.
Good managing is about knowing what to tell a fighter, when to tell him, and how he will grow into the best he can be. Any adult needs the facts to make a good choice, but the details are just that, and can hurt some fighter in the long run.
Ethan Boyle - How about this, the fighter gets to the event and their opponent is on a big cut but still over weight by 5lbs, and this is in the lightweight division. Your fighter is at their natural weight, and makes weight. Your fighter makes weight so will get their show money if they decline the match or not, would you still let them take the more than likely loss knowing that, as a manager, making more through getting a win is unlikely, so declining you would still get the same?
If that was too complicated, I will re-write it.
It comes down to risk vs reward. Your record gets no asterisk. If the fighter will lose, you already get a cut of pay, its not worth hurting your revenue for the future. If you push the fighter to take it, odds are he will fire you, so you lose all earning potential. If he pulls off a win, and looks bad, you still can hurt your revenue.
The fighter gets the choice, you just advise. Odds are he has an opinion, the manager advises but still lets the fighter decide.
Managers do this as a job primarily. Its money first, fighter second. It will be that way as long as small tier fighters dont make bank, the little guy gets hosed.
Its all about the risk..is the fight worth the risk or not? I do not let my fighter decide, I seek a joint decision with the fighter, the coaches and myself. Fighter will take a decision with his heart, not his brain, an 8 out of 10 times, will be a bad one. As a Manager, I am obliged to tell a fighter everything, but sometimes, I already know what problem certain info will create, so I chose the right time to pas on information. To much at the wrong time will rock the apple cart! If its all about money, or its all about ego, it means that there are other things in play then the fighters best interest. As a manager, you must always seek the fighters best interest. I never put my own interest over my fighters!
"Managers do this as a job primarily. Its money first, fighter second. It will be that way as long as small tier fighters dont make bank, the little guy gets hosed."
You're talking about a manager that is all business, tell me about a manager who cares about their fighter more than just making some dollars. How about that manager that see's grooming, and pointing out the best training, taking fights that make sense, and builds their fighters experience and knowledge through all of this?
The business manager can get any fighter a fight and make a dollar, but those are NOT the best managers. I have seen at least one manager that had some good talent on his roster, this made a lot of other fighters want to sign with him. But it wasn't really a roster, it was a pond of fish, some big some small. A lot of fighters saw the pond and thought to themselves, that pond has some big fish, I want to be a big fish. But in the end they went to another pond as a guppy and got eaten up by another fish that was just a little bigger. It's just wrong to me. The big manager has some big talent that attracts other talent but in the end, he just see's who rises to the top as all the others get burned.
So, tell me, what would a manager be like if they only had their fighters best interest in mind and would still collect their 10%?
Its a complicated business, and its a complicated job. You cannot simply manage like a business, because fighters tend to be complex personality's, and what they do in their lives outside the specific medium of fighting and training will effect their performance.
Every time I decide to accept a fighters management, I always remember that he is entrusting me with the best years of his life, a commodity that no money can ever buy back, and I take that seriously. When I manage some one, I hold on to the handle.
To pint out the best training for someone, you must first understand what it is to train, what it is to be an athlete. I dont see a lot of my peers with that kind of knowledge.
You never take a fight that you dont have chance of winning to start with. Money shouldnt come into it unless you are getting enough for a deposit on a house IMO.
You only take harder fights and risks when there is a positive to it IMO,
One of the guys in my gym took a fight on short notice and a less than ideal preparation against a guy who was starting to build a bit of a rep and record - I had watched the guy fight and knew his strengths and weaknesses and that my guy could hold his own against him and win with the right game plan.
I was honest with my guy we weighed up the risks and he was keen to give it a shot - end result was my guy lost the fight on a close points decision but got instant recognition and further great opportunities on the promotion.
I had 2 of my guys fight for free on a recent large show in my state for the experience and they got some great publicity and new sponsors - ironically the promoter skipped out on paying most of the other fighters who originally laughed at my guys fighting for nothing.
End of the day - MMA/Fightworld is full of piece of shit managers/promoters/coaches who will try and rip you off, set you up, lie, threaten, try and line their own pockets with no regard for you etc.
If you can find a manager/coach/promoter/whatever with a real love for the game you are half way there IMO. If you fight only for the money you aint a fighter!
Sorry for the FRAT
AjDavis, thank you for your posts.