If you were going to teach someone to defend themselves/fight and you could only teach them one aspect ie standup(boxing/thai), or the clinch work, or the bjj(grappling) which would you say would be the most important. I know all of them in general are equal but if you had to pick one which would you pick?
1) boxing thai
2) standup clinch
3) grappling, bjj
SBGiSpartan - why do you say jiu-jitsu is bad for the streets? I know
this topic has been done to death, but it's rare to hear from someone
affiliated with the SBG.
personally I think the basic BJJ philosophy of "take your opponent into
an element where you are most proficient and they are least proficient"
is still one of the smartest things ever stated.
i firmly believe that even still in this day and age, 99.9% of the people
you encounter in "street fights" will be clueless against jiu-jitsu and
make the simple, uneducated mistakes we all saw back in the early
days of the UFC when Royce schooled them (granted Kimo was a
beast).
viva la jiu-jitsu!
Alot of that would probably depend on who you are teaching.
As a female, I think it is very beneficial for me to know clinch and ground as the most likely reason I am going to have to defend myself is against someone who wants to get WAY to close to me.
Knowing how to box is essential, but in defending myself, if I can throw punches with someone... I can probably run.
I don't think BJJ is 'bad for the streets' at all, its vital to know how to fight on the ground. but i do think (at least where i live) that going to the ground may not happen as often. off the top of my head, i can remember instances where i witnessed streetfight altercations and none of them took place in an area where there was even enough room to go to the ground (crowded bar/club, subway, against a car/between 2 parked cars)
from what i've seen however i think you can almost always guarantee the clinch happening in a realistic altercation when someone is intent on causing damage. you may never see a perfect unattached double jab-cross combo or may never end up on the ground (cuz of environment factors) but you can almost always guarantee the clinch since most aggressive pre-fight posture seems to start there anyway.
of course if it goes to the ground you need to know how to escape headlocks, defend GnP, look for positional dominance to end the fight, and stand back up; but usually its never looked like 2 guys coming at eachother from opposite corners with their hands up ready to throw down. hockey punching and slopping body tackles seem to be the order of the day.
i would also submit that there really is no solid defense against multiple attackers in terms of striking or grappling. the most effective defense is fleeing and anything else that might be functional should revolve around increasing your chances of doing just that ... fleeing. i feel that if this isn't the case then clinching and grappling again is guaranteed since i would imagine the advantage of multiple attackers is that one or several can hold you while one or several strike you. thats pretty much the way it goes unless you're Steven Seagal and know any of that deadly Aikido.
"Ahhhh!! don't shoot, take the woman!!!"
-Bill Paxton (True Lies)
"But I feel that you should never pull guard in a street fight. "
BJJ is not just the guard.
i don't really think it'd be helpful for me to address the multiple
opponent senario since that's been done intelligently elsewhere ad
nauseam.
"taking the back or takedowns aor clinching, in my eyes would be
considered wrestling"
i disagree, simply because of the goal.
thanks for the story... if you'd gone for the takedown and established
top position in the first place you wouldn't have slipped and been
dragged around by your foot/on your back... ;)
it's all good. your points are equally valid. it's just not so black and
white and "jiu-jitsu is bad for the streets" just infuriates me.
"well, Im a wrestler by nature and I did go for a double but the kid was too heavy he weight about 112 pounds more then me at the time, I didnt want to fight any way, I was ropped into it, so I agree with Christian about leaving, but It was made impossible, so I had to change to fight mode, but I think clinch is greco, so Christian you are agreeing in a way, and if guy if u take the back, which is referees possition in wrestling, or boots, and strike then that is not jits, if u go for armbars and stuff ok then I agree with you, and maybe I should have worded it better I dont think jits is bad for the street I think its not the best for the street, but ne takedown, clinch, is wrestling it may be a means to get into a jits possition but it is wrestling."
Dude, the comma called. It wants you to stop abusing it.
LOL@Gibson.
Someone far more intelligent than me once stated "the situation dictates the tactics" so being versed in all ranges is the best option for self-defense.
Here's another good one: "So it bothers me that there is this implied assumption that BJJ people are like robot hookers who throw their legs around anything that moves and pull guard."- Omar (from another forum)
"Knowing how to box is essential, but in defending myself, if I can throw punches with someone... I can probably run."
nicley said. this is something i have always stressed and very few understand.
sbgspartan,
Relson and Helio never want to be on the bottom during a street fight. MMA has changed how many outside of the older GJJ loop have seen and practiced jiu-jitsu.
If it goes, it will go where it goes but....
Outside...ideally. You could take off easier from there.
Inside....most likely. You better know how to control and move and deliver and get out when tied up.
Grounded....unfortunately. You have to know how to escape.
The non-range is best though. Don't go there. If its hand to hand, 9.9 out of ten it was an ego thing you could have walked away from. For this type of training, try and put on gi jackets and train mma while giving yourself very short time limits to get out and away while the other presses in and attempts to stop you. This is just a start.
For self-defense...the training changes a bit though the delivery systems remain.
http://www.canadas-best.com/images/ISRPM_clipDSL.wmv
-Luis
Honestly....
If we're talking purely about self defense, in my opinion, the most important areas are outside the physical realm. If things go hands on, as Luis stated, chances are you messed up. Unless we are talking about ambushes, the fight will begin way before things go physical. It is at this point that actively defending ourselves begins. Much like driving, the focus should be on avoiding the accidents and not on how to crash into another car without incurring TOO much damage.
Then again....if your're not watching the road, you won't have much choice.
Jerry
www.centerlinegym.com
I'd like to hear what Corky has to say about this.
Knees to the groin, eye gouges, and wrist locks - it is the only way!!!!
j/k ;-)
Merry Xmas all!!!
Tim.
I have a private student that has been with me for several months now. He came in wanting to learn how to defend himself and at 50, didn't want to waste any time with non essentials. I remember him asking me if he taraied twice a week for six months, "would that be enough?".
I explained to him my beief was that he could learn "enough" in a lot less than six months. The trick would be for him to develop game so that his training would be more efficient, personally challenging and enjoyable. He's still going strong after seven months with no sign of quitting yet.
Most of our training has been standup, clinch and escapes. We also work counter weapon strategies and a ton of extreme close quarter work off the wall and out of corners. Now that he is showing solid game in these areas, we are starting to work more ground.
fletch,
can you elaborate on this - "extreme close quarter work off the wall and out of corners"
thanks
Elaboration for Fernando - that would mean training ...
close quarter work ...
off the wall and out of corners ...
TO THE EXTREME ! ! !
Christian,
You are my official interpreter for the FletchoTechnoTacticalGibberish I sometimes spout. LOL.
Fernando,
As a drill, I 'll have him start backed up the the wall or into a corner, or into a "phonebooth" set up with wavebags. I'll glove up and come at him with pressure, head and boddy shots. His goal is to cover with Crazy Monkey, Helmet, etc and Clinch, Underhook, Armdrag his way to freedom.
It gave him a lot of confidence that his defense can hold up to some punishment and he can still flank and maneuver even if the attacker has size and power on him.
Sounds like good stuff Fletch.
Thanks Matt, I got the idea from something I saw Rory doing on the Hardcore Training DVD.