I just finnished reading the thread "Pulling guard to Arm Bar".
Anyway my situation is somewhat similar. I have trained BJJ and competed in various BJJ tournaments. Nothing super special as I am only a 2 stripe blue belt but I have placed well.
Anyway I am currectly thinking about training Judo and maybe even participating in some low level Judo shiai. I just want to have fun and learn some throws so that I can sometimes get the top position in BJJ competitions (if the guy is very good at passing the guard) without spending too much energy or time trying to accomplish that.
Anyway all I know about Judo are ukemis. I have trained ukemi techniques and am fairly good at them. Other than that I know next to nothing about Judo.
So as I just want to learn some throw to get the top position in BJJ competitions I am looking some help.
What kind of techniques (throws) should I train and drill?
How many times in a week should I train throws only so that I actually learn to do some throws on live sparring?
Should I concentrate only on so called sacrafice throws as if I fail I am in position to use my rather good guard to attack?
My friend told me that for some one like me seoinage type of throw(s) are not so good as those kind of throws puts stress on ones elbow join and as my BJJ training already makes my elbow joint "cry" it is not too healthy. Is there any truth in this?
All ideas, suggestions, help etc. are appriciated.
Any throw executed properly can give you top position. It is when the throw fails that you need to worry about.
"- What kind of techniques (throws) should I train and drill? "
Depends on a lot of things. Ko-uchi and o-uchi, I think, are good for BJJers. Tomoe nage and sumi gaeshi. I think sumi is better because if you are strong with the grip you can prevent a person from pulling guard on you. (Judok@ showed me that.)
"- How many times in a week should I train throws only so that I actually learn to do some throws on live sparring? "
As much as you can. I started once a week. After 6 months I went to twice. Now I am between 3-5 times a week most weeks. Of course, I am just a rec player, so life gets in the way sometimes.
"- Should I concentrate only on so called sacrafice throws as if I fail I am in position to use my rather good guard to attack?"
No.
"- My friend told me that for some one like me seoinage type of throw(s) are not so good as those kind of throws puts stress on ones elbow join and as my BJJ training already makes my elbow joint "cry" it is not too healthy. Is there any truth in this?"
I have a really bad right elbow as well. I do a left handed ippon seio from a right handed grip. It does not hurt at all, but it will expose you to back mount if you miss it. Same with sode-tsuri-komi-goshi. I set up most of these attacks with ko-uchi to either side and if I get the correct grip I will go for sumi off of ko-uchi or uchi-mata off of ko-uchi. That is my entire standing game. 4 throws really and they all work into and out of each other. The only ones that don't set me up for ground work if I miss are the seio and sode.
I think you should just learn the ultimate trips: The Gracie (tm) modified Judo throws that "straighten the spine (tm), and are all the serious BJJ'ist needs to get to the mat in a hurry in a superior top position.
Don't waste your time learning complicated Judo throws (like Jacare and other BJJ greats), just learn Gracie (tm)Spine Straightening Trips(tm).
Well, my advice is that you just join a Judo club and practice as often as you can.
You'll soon start to get a sense of which throws are best for your body type, personality, and style of fighting. You may find that you're terrible at sacrifice throws, for instance. I've always dreamed of having a good ippon-seoi-nage, but that throw doesn't suit my playing style or my injury collection. I've always considered osoto-gari a rather ugly throw, but for some reason I have a knack for it. You have to put in the time to learn this sort of thing.
If you start playing Judo regularly, you'll also start to understand how often you need to train to develop throws you can rely on (i.e., years).
Problem for me is that there is so much going on in my life that finding enought time to train BJJ is becoming a problem. I was just wondering if there would bo some other way finding what throws suit for my style of fighting, body type etc. other than trial and error method. Maybe one to three throws to concentrate on.
Ben I have never ever heard of any BJJ Ultimate trips that "straighten the spine" etc. Most of the throws that I have been taught in BJJ are... well honestly not so good. My personal opinion is that the techniauw is lacking. Judo way of doing those throws is simply put better. Anyway most likely you are just being sarcastic.
I bet Jacare, Saulo and Margarida do train Judo a lot as they are professional fighters and do nothing but train all day along. However for us average Joe's, who just like to grapple as a hobby (be it BJJ or Judo) like me, finding time to really train both arts can be a problem.
Anyway it would be nice to be able to get top position for a change as using guard extensively can be hard for lower back.
I crossed over to the Dark Side (or should I say became one of the Patched) back in '99 after 15+ years of Judo.
As to which Judo throws you might like to incorporate into you BJJ game, I teach De-Ashi-Hari, a kind of lazy mans O Uchi Gari and Sumi Gaeshi. Those few throws have served me well over the last few years.
"You don't see everyone being choked out of a failed seio in international competition, cuz it's not that easy."
You're right in that you don't often see chokes off a failed shoulder throw, but in a sportive context, one also has to deal with points as well. Any time you fail to take your opponent to the ground AND expose your back, you provide a golden opportunity for your opponent to secure Back/Rear Mount which is typically awarded 4 points. Only a maximum of 2 points are awarded for a throw. So you've got to weigh it up some: do I want to chance earning 2 points knowing if I fail my opponent may well receive 4.
When you also consider that the criteria for scoring a throw in BJJ (if you go by CFBJJ rules) pretty much amounts to requiring an Ippon or a really good Wazari, tactically one's selection of throws needs to be tempered with the appreciation that just because it works in a Judo context, it may not be strategically appropriate in BJJ competition.
Good Judo doesn't always make for Good BJJ.
The differences in the broad objectives of the two sports are such that (typically long-term) success in the competition arena requires more than developing a killer technique and transferring it across.
BJJ guys often make the mistake of thinking they can take their highly developed Submission Game and apply it successfully to Judo. Similarly Judo players tend to over-value their throwing skills when trying out BJJ.
To illustrate my point somewhat: when I made the transfer to BJJ (after many years of Judo) I was warned and subsequently penalised within an inch of disqualification for repeatedly throwing my opponent during a BJJ competition. I'd throw the opponent, drag him off the floor, throw him again etc etc, racking up two points each time. This is a good example of my well developed judo skills being tactically correct (i.e. selection of throws) but applied to a flawed strategy (because if one throws too much without seeking a submission, then one may be disqualified).
If you want to good at any particular throw, just pick it, and get instruction on it, and practice it over and over. No other throws. It sounds like you just want to learn a really good take down/throw for competition, not become well rounded. That is great for competition. Really most any throw will work, you just have to make it work. So pick, find someone who knows it and then practice it.
The other way to do it is to first find someone who knows what they are doing, have them pick the throw for you, and then do it. Same results.
Who is this Your Father you are talking about Ben? Is he some kind of expert in throws for BJJ?
I singed on local Judo club. It is a nice club. I did not go to the advanced class but I went to the basic beginners class. It mean I will train nothing but ukemis for a while but I quess one can not train ukemi technique too much - ever. Anyway the instructor told me that if I want I can go to the randori class as my ukeme technique is already good enough. They have separate randori classes for stand up and newaza. Most of the guys in this club are big guys (about 90 to 100 kg) so they are bigger than me. This is the only thing I do not like about this Judo club. Well my own fault maybe I need to star lifting heavy in oder to get bigger ;)
Unique,
why not just "not worry about it" and just take judo to learn judo? I mean, put your BJJ aside and just take a judo class and not worry about or limit yourself to which techniques you should learn specifically for BJJ or this and that.
Just learn judo and you will find those techniques that you prefer - everyone does eventually.
"I wanna learn the ultimate trips!! Breaking out my visa!! "
LOL! Remember, get the "Ultimate Spine Straightening Trips".
I swear, people think that because one guy or family figures out one method of how to throw/takedown effectively it's the be all and end all of throw/takedown methods/principles.
As you know, JJ, Judo is huge. It's universal, all encompassing.