More on hand strikes in European stickwork, and info on moulinets in my next post on this thread...
Stickgrappler,"random comment/q. from a beginner in FMA and MA in general: did the English "defang the snake", i.e. did they target the hand holding the weapon? or more specifically did the French. in Hutton's Cold Steel book, chapter on great stick, he included 3 parries that the French used. generally blocks like that will get your hand hit by a good FMAer."Hutton's "French Right and Left Parry" is somewhat similar to the "half-staffing" seen in quarterstaff work (ie., with the hands spaced fairly wide, so as to use the staff in "Robin Hood" fashion for closer combat, as opposed to using it like a giant sword by holding it at one end with both hands. As far as the hands being vulnerable to strikes, all I can say is that there probably was some provision for compensating for the apparent danger there, though I don't know enough about "great stick" work to comment further upon it (since I don't know the rules of "great stick"). However, there are FMA styles which utilize staffs for blocking/parrying in a manner similar to the "French Right and Left Parry" shown by Hutton--for example, the Banda-Banda staffwork of Leo Giron. The following info was taken from the article, "Banda-Banda: The Secret Staff of Giron Arnis Escrima", by Antonio E. Somera (Weapons of the Martial Arts magazine, Nov '99): The Giron banda-banda system uses two staff grips. The first features two hands held at one end of the weapon[sounds similar to the long-range work of European quarterstaff-play]. If you are right handed, the right hand will be positioned above the left hand, and vice-versa. With this type of grip the basic five linear strikes pattern can be used along with a circular style of striking[a Filipino version of a moulinet, perhaps?]. The blocking grip is used in much the same fashion. The theory behind this grip is that you must keep your opponent at bay. And only when your opponent closes the distance does the second grip come into play. In this grip, your hands are held shoulders-width apart, dividing the staff into thirds. Both of these grips are used for blocking, deflecting, redirecting, and direct striking to the opponent's body or weapon.[emphasis added] Unfortunately I don't have any pics, but the magazine article shows Giron holding the six-foot staff in a "half-staffing" fashion, similar to Hutton's "French Right and Left Parry", though with the hands closer together, more in the center (and if anything, this appears to make Giron's hands even more vulnerable to strikes, especially since he is shown blocking blows with the section of staff between his hands). However, knowing the pragmatic approach of Master Giron, who was an experienced WWII vet, there must be some way of minimizing the vulnerability of the hands--it probably has something to do with the fact that the "second grip" is used at closer range. I suspect the same may hold true for the use of the "French" parry with the "great stick", though it is still conjecture.TFSP.S. Next, I'll elaborate on moulinets, as well as hand strikes in earlier European stick work (yeah, I know, I already said that earlier--please forgive my redundancy). :-)
Stickgrappler,About hand strikes in George Silver's time (as applied to staff work)...Silver mentions this subject in his "general rules" section that applies to ALL weapons:Certain general rules which must be observed in that perfect use of all kind of weapons.Cap. 21. First when you come into the field to encounter with your enemy, observe well the scope, evenness and unevenness of your ground, put yourself in readiness with your weapon, before your enemy comes within distance, set the sun in his face traverse if possible if possible you can still remembering your governors.2. Let all your lying be such as shall best like yourself, ever considering out what fight your enemy charges you, but be sure to keep your distance, so that neither head, arms, hands, body, nor legs be within his reach, but that he must first of necessity put in his foot or feet, at which time you have the choice of 3 actions by which you may endanger him & go free yourself.For specifics of staff work, Silver doesn't offer as much, as far as the subject of hand striking goes:Of the short staff fight, being of convenient length, against the like weapon......11. If both lie aloft as aforesaid, & play with the left hand before, if he strikes at the right side of your head or body then must you cross his staff before his blow is in full force, by making your space narrow, & then strike it strongly back again towards his left side, & from that ward you may turn back your staff & strike him backward & therewith on the left side of his head, or lift up your staff & strike him on the right or left side of the head, body, or arm, or thrust him in the body, the like blows or thrusts any you make at him whether he strikes or thrusts, having put by his staff, remembering your governors.Much more emphasis is placed on whacking the guy in the head (which can easily kill--remember those coroner's reports from Nottinghamshire)--In the "Short Staff vs Like Weapon" section, Silver mentions hits to the head at least 8 times. A lot of both the head shots and lack of info on hand shots (or protecting the hand) may have to do with the fact that so much of quarterstaff work was of the "long range" variety as opposed to the "half-staffing" seen in some of Hutton's work with the "great stick" and Giron's Banda-Banda-play (and echoed in Robin Hood flicks forever).With other polearms like the Forest Bill (whose use is obviously very similar to quarterstaff use, Silver mentions more attacks on the hand than he does with the quarterstaff/short staff:Of the fight of the forest bill againstthe like weapon & against the staff......5. Also if you can reach within the head of his bill with the head of your bill then suddenly with the head of your bill snatch his bill head strongly towards you, & therewithal indirect his bill head & forcibly run up your bill head to his hands, so have you the like advantage as above said, whereas I spoke of running up towards his hands.6. If he lies low with this bill head then if you can put your bill head in over the head of his bill, & strongly put down his bill staff with your bill head, bearing it flat, then you may presently run up your bill head single handed to his hands & fly out therewith, so shall you hurt him in the hands & go free yourself.Also, the picture below from Joachim Meyer's 1570 fechbuch is interesting--it's hard to say exactly what's going on without the accompanying text, but it appears as though the staff man on the left (who may be executing a thrust) has just received a blow upon the knuckles of his left hand. Alternatively, however, the staff man on the left may be performing a circular parry/redirection of a blow to the head by the guy on the right, so again, it's hard to say for certain.
TFS
TFS,
good sir, you are definitely a credit to this forum! thank you. this is a lot to read now, will print out and read on train ride home. thank you!!
here's another q: i don't think i saw the answer before. if you are right handed, how do you hold the staff? how did the masters of old teach it? right handed = right hand is the lead hand with right foot forward? or right hand/foot in rear?
TIA.
p.s. i realize a fight is dynamic, so leads may change as will grips. but the q. is directed on the on-guard stance.
Stickgrappler,Silver pretty much answers the question as to leads: 9. If you play with your staff with your left hand before and your right hand back behind, as many men find themselves most apt when that hand is before, & if your adversary upon his blow comes in to take the close of you, when you find his staff crossed with yours near his hand, then suddenly slip up you right hand close to the hind side of your foremost hand, & presently loosing the hind side of your foremost hand & put in under your own staff, & then cross or put by his staff therewith your hand take hold of his staff in such sort that your little finger be towards the point of his staff, & your thumb & forefinger towards his hands, & presently with your right hand mount the point of your own staff casting the point thereof over your right shoulder, with your knuckles downwards, & so stab him in the body or face with the hind end of your staff, but be sure to stab him at his coming in, whether you catch his staff or not, for sometimes his staff will lie to far out hat upon his coming in you cannot reach it, then catch that arm in his coming in which he shall first put forth within your reach, but be sure to stab, for his staff can do you no hurt, and having so done, if you find yourself too strong for him, strike up his heels, if too weak fly out.10. The like must you do if you play with your right hand & your left hand back behind, but if you need not to slide forth your left hand, because your right hand is in the right place on your staff already to use in that action, but then you must displace your left hand to take hold of his staff, or the grip as is aforesaid, & to use the stab as is above said.11. If both lie aloft as aforesaid, & play with the left hand before, if he strikes at the right side of your head or body then must you cross his staff before his blow is in full force, by making your space narrow, & then strike it strongly back again towards his left side, & from that ward you may turn back your staff & strike him backward & therewith on the left side of his head, or lift up your staff & strike him on the right or left side of the head, body, or arm, or thrust him in the body, the like blows or thrusts any you make at him whether he strikes or thrusts, having put by his staff, remembering your governors.The like order must you use in playing with the right hand foreward.It sounds from the above as if Silver was indicating that which hand you choose to lead with is a matter of personal preference, regardless of whether you are right or left-handed. Also, as far as I have been able to ascertain, if you lead with your right hand, your right leg is the one that is forward, and vice versa, at least in terms of being on guard. However, much "passing" footwork was used back then, and so the leg you lead with will of course change back and forth as the fight goes on.Joseph Swetnam (1617) also writes about leading alternately with the left or right hand with the staff, but more specifically, he speaks of matching leads with your opponent (Silver may as well--I admittedly have trouble deciphering Silver's early modern English on occasion):The true guard for the Staffe, which we willcall the Low guardKeep the point of your Stafffe right in your enemies face, holding one hand at the verie buttt end of the Staffe, and the other a foote and a halfe distant, looking over your Staffe with both your eies and your feet and and a half distance, or thereabouts, according to this picture, always standing crsse with your enemie, I meanie, if his right hand and foote be foremost, let yours be so likewise, and if his left-hand and foote be foremost, then make you your change and crosse with him also.
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[continued from above] Meyer's staff and halberd fighters are commonly shown leading with their left side, but again, that "passing" footwork is seen.Likewise, the pikeman in Jacob de Gheyn's 1607 pike drill manual (The Exercise of Armes) is shown leading with his left side, and as pikes are almost exclusively a thrusting weapon, this makes sense (especially considering that the majority of folks are right-handed).First pic is the pike "charged" (used when pike blocks crash together in a giant shoving/pushing/thrusting match, as well as by the second rank, etc., to face cavalry charges).
Second pic is the pike "charged for horse" (used by the front rank to face oncoming cavalry).
In my own staff experience (which is very limited), I have discovered the following--being right-handed, I prefer to lead with my left side when delivering thrusts (especially slip-thrusts), but I would rather lead with my right side when executing striking blows--which merely indicates that I favor my power side at all times! :-) Hope this all helps a bit.TFS
My head hurts. LOL! I know so little so I'm a sponge trying to deal with all this information. It appears you gentlemen have more than enough knowledge and resources to collaborate on a book ... or at least get published in a magazine. The way you map historical techniques to current MA is awesome and makes so much sense.
The Amberger article you referenced above and in the other thread was especially brutal! The use of current sound bites before he rips into those various uninformed opinions was so effective.
Great posts gentlemen!
Excellent thread Stickgrappler!
Just an off the topic note that may be of interest on this pic:This pic dates from the 17th century, a few decades before the English Civil War. Picture hundreds, if not thousands of guys lined up like that all shoulder to shoulder. The Pike he is holding is around 18 feet long, all of those pikes would be about a horses head's height or the rider's height, to (as TFS stated) block cavalry charges. (Most people would not charge a horse full speed into a row of spikes). But in case it happened, they kept their swords half drawn to finish off those who had fallen or were left in the fray. This kind of tactic can be seen in "Braveheart".
More on moulinets--As I already stated, the moulinet is the circular cut in saber fencing, using the elbow as the pivot point (the word itself means "windmill"). It is known as a molinello in Italian and as a schwingung in German. The earliest known reference to the moulinet comes from Camillo Palladini's fencing treatise (published sometime after 1553), where he includes the molinello as one of the cuts used with the spada (rapier).As I also mentioned, the moulinet is not seen too much in saber competition these days, for the modern fencing saber is even lighter than the "Raedellian" model of the late 19th century (which was, in turn, much lighter than the normal fighting sabers used by cavalrymen), and can be manipulated purely through the use of the fingers and wrist. Sabreurs who still make use of moulinets must be careful, since a moulinet from the elbow can be considered use of "excessive force" on the modern-day fencing strip. Another reason moulinets are not used with much frequency now is because the modern game with the ultralight sabers involves really fast stop-hits, and one's elbow and arm can be left open to such a stop-hit when performing a moulinet. However, when sabers were still being used for duelling purposes in the early 20th century, the moulinet was considered essential because it was a cut that could still actually do a decent amount of damage. Also, the vulnerability when performing a moulinet can be minimized by fighting from an old-style "hanging guard", as mentioned by Ye Lunatic. This is an excellent en guarde posistion, as it allows the fencer to parry a blow and then immediately riposte with a moulinet with the least amount of danger.In some FMA styles, there is a blow called the "reaping strike" (an interestingly appropriate term), and as far as I can see, it is simply the Filipino equivilent of a moulinet--a circular strike generated from the elbow (it is part of the repertoire of methods referred to in FMA as redondo or redonda, ie., "circular"--compare with the Spanish terms a la redonda "roundabout", and redondoda "round" or "circle"). Here we would also do well to remember the rule of thumb regarding blows/cuts--a cut from the wrist is the quickest, but it is also the weakest. On the other end of the spectrum, a cut from the shoulder is the most powerful, but also the slowest. The moulinet fits neatly between the two--it is quicker than the cut from the shoulder, yet more powerful than the cut from the wrist. This happy middle ground makes the moulinet extremely useful, IMHO. In fact, Giacomo di Grassi wrote in his 1570 manual that cuts from the elbow (supplementing cuts from the wrist) were more than sufficient for swordfighting purposes (and while I personally feel that there are also times when a little added power from the shoulder can help too, I am also about as far from being a sword master as one can get).In addition, it should be pointed out that while moulinets and other cuts from fencing are of course often accompanied by footwork, the concept of adding power through the use of torque generated from the hips (as seen in many stickfighting styles) is not always used (there may, of course, be times when adding torque to a swordcut will be useful--Clements mentions this). In modern fencing, it is naturally not used at all. The more frequent use of torque in stickfighting is understandable, since it maximizes the power of a blunt instrument. A sword, on the other hand, already has a sharp cutting edge, and so the use of torque is often not as critical (but again, this is not to say that it is never used, especially in real swordfighting, as opposed to sport fencing).[continued below]
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As far as moulinets go in reference to the use of Hutton's "great stick", I can unfortunately offer next to nothing, since I know very little of the use of that weapon. All I can say is that it is presumably a two-handed circular blow, using the elbows as the pivot point. If anyone has any further info on this, please post it here.
TFS
JointLock,Thanks for the compliments, bro. Feel free to post some stuff of your own, or start your own thread!TFSJust remember, this guy is THE MAN!
TFS-
I made a comment that Stickgrappler responded to about halfway up the thread, wasn't sure if you saw it or not.
Jason
Jason,
About the slow loading of pics for people with dial-up? I've got a pretty slow system, and it doesn't seem all that bad--should we not post as many pics? Again, it doesn't seem like that big a deal, but if you folks know something I don't, please clue me in.
Thanx,
TFS
Jointlock,
thanks. if you have any questions, post away, i'm sure TFS, YL, Jason Couch et al will have answers or at least point you in the direction.
TFS/YL,
THANK YOU!! although brief thanks to your lengthy reply, it is heartfelt. sincerest appreciation for your time and efforts and knowledge.
Stickgrappler,
You are welcome, sir! Please feel free to post any other questions--we'll do our best to answer them.
TFS
hello,
Q on Joseph Swetnam - is there a modern english version of his manual somewhere online? i'm looking specifically for his staff instruction, but the olde english is killing me :-)
TIA
Not to knitpick, but it is actually Early Modern English. Old English looks like a completely different language, it is Germanic and was spoken before the Norman conquest of England in 1066 A.D.
Stickgrappler,
I'm still looking for a "modernized" version of Swetnam--in the meantime, if you have any questions regarding him or his manual, feel free to toss them our way.
TFS
YL,
thanks for the correction. "it's all Greek to me" ;-)
TFS,
i have struggled a bit to "translate" just the staff portions of the text. q's re: his manual - yes, the whole thing :-) i will post a few q's soon.
TIA.