rank these NHL hockey players

androb -
yusul - 
androb - 
yusul - 
RhinoHog -
Mark1 -

I take Messier first if I am building a team from scratch.

Mark

THAT'S how you won the Bieber sweepstakes....you suck.....lol.


messier over crosby lol. that would be like auston matthews over mcdavid. 


 


 




what metrics are you using to rank Sid ahead of Moose?

Not saying youre wrong.. just curious what you used to come to that consensus?

they are very even after their 1'st 1000 games in goals and points

Moose finished 3rd over all in PTS all time
2 mvps
2 playoff MVP
6 cups total ( 2 without wayne )

by what metric is sid "better"

 


sid has:
2 art ross (which is why we judge grets so high: points), 2 conn smythe to mark's 1.

messier had 20 year to win a scoring title and never did.
other notable facts when you look inside their 1000 games:

sid:

was the first player to get 100 points and 100 penalty min.
played the fewest games played by team leading scorer
was the youngest player to hit 200 points
was the youngest player to hit 2 100 point seasons, and he played in a point deprived era.
has lead the league in goals 1x.

messier has never lead the league in either goals nor points.

sid has better physical attributes, like top speed, edgework and passing. better ppg. 1.28 sid, vs. 1.07, and 1.07 is playing with grets on your team and in the 80s.

imo release is about similar if you account for moose using a wooden, but he did awesome at the 4 corner events at the all star and is an excellent sniper. i'd rate him slightly better than sid, but sid generates so much power and speed he creates openings on goalies. moose is more physical and is a better leader. but i'd still take crosby in a draft, or rank him higher on a top 50 list.


messier played at he same time as Wayne and Mario - tough to win a scoring title with #1 and #2 all time playing at the same time

but the PPG after 1000 games are virtually identical 1.28

if sid keeps up the scoring pace for another 10 years i may change my mind

and Messier didnt play on the same line with Gretzky.. they played PP together but very little 5v5

and yes scoring is down.. because wayne and Mario arent scoring 200 pts a season.

if you look at the points leaders just before the GWG era its 123 ppg

then explodes during wayne / mario years and back down to 100 + an average

I'm guessing messier would be very similar playing in todays game numbers wise.. and has 6 CUPS

I think we overlook messier because he played with the 2 GOATS




 

This point doesn't make sense either. The scoring was not up solely because of Mario and Wayne. 


 


Just as an example, picking a random year from the 80's and 2000's..... In 1984/85 there were 16 players with 100+ points. In 2007/08 there were 2. In 08/09 there were 3. In 10/11 there was 1. You get the picture.


I mean, just look at the PPG leaders of all time. There is a reason the majority of the top 50 list played 30+ years ago.

androb -
yusul - 
androb - 
yusul - 
RhinoHog -
Mark1 -

I take Messier first if I am building a team from scratch.


Mark

THAT'S how you won the Bieber sweepstakes....you suck.....lol.

messier over crosby lol. that would be like auston matthews over mcdavid. 


 


 


what metrics are you using to rank Sid ahead of Moose?

Not saying youre wrong.. just curious what you used to come to that consensus?

they are very even after their 1'st 1000 games in goals and points

Moose finished 3rd over all in PTS all time
2 mvps
2 playoff MVP
6 cups total ( 2 without wayne )

by what metric is sid "better"



sid has:
2 art ross (which is why we judge grets so high: points), 2 conn smythe to mark's 1.

messier had 20 year to win a scoring title and never did.
other notable facts when you look inside their 1000 games:

sid:

was the first player to get 100 points and 100 penalty min.
played the fewest games played by team leading scorer
was the youngest player to hit 200 points
was the youngest player to hit 2 100 point seasons, and he played in a point deprived era.
has lead the league in goals 1x.

messier has never lead the league in either goals nor points.

sid has better physical attributes, like top speed, edgework and passing. better ppg. 1.28 sid, vs. 1.07, and 1.07 is playing with grets on your team and in the 80s.

imo release is about similar if you account for moose using a wooden, but he did awesome at the 4 corner events at the all star and is an excellent sniper. i'd rate him slightly better than sid, but sid generates so much power and speed he creates openings on goalies. moose is more physical and is a better leader. but i'd still take crosby in a draft, or rank him higher on a top 50 list.

messier played at he same time as Wayne and Mario - tough to win a scoring title with #1 and #2 all time playing at the same time

but the PPG after 1000 games are virtually identical 1.28

if sid keeps up the scoring pace for another 10 years i may change my mind

and Messier didnt play on the same line with Gretzky.. they played PP together but very little 5v5

and yes scoring is down.. because wayne and Mario arent scoring 200 pts a season.

if you look at the points leaders just before the GWG era its 123 ppg

then explodes during wayne / mario years and back down to 100 + an average

I'm guessing messier would be very similar playing in todays game numbers wise.. and has 6 CUPS

I think we overlook messier because he played with the 2 GOATS





first point is true, but he could have lead the league in goals at various points, as grets was only bored enough one season to see how many goals he could score.  also he did have several years to win the points as gwg was out and so was super mario due to cancer. 


 


what i mean playing with grets, is that if you have two #1 lines, then the second line is a lot more open on matchups. I believe moose did play some pp time with grets, but i have to look back. 


 


i think messier would be getting around 1 ppg in this era.  6 cups playing with wayne for several of those doesn't impress me as much. 


 


i'm not overlooking messier, in that era you had jagr, modano, lafontaine, oates, thornton, hull, federov, bure, sakic, yzerman, forsberg, mogilny, nieuwendyk, gilmour, selanne etc.  there were a lot of stars in that era.  

If you index Messier & Sids PPG compared to the league average total goals per game by year - Sidney out performs Messier by a significant margin. While their raw numbers are similar - relative to their eras sidney is ahead of Messier - even when looking at just their first 16 seasons

The league averaged 3.3GPG during messier's career. 3.8 if you just look at the first 16 seasons (sids career so far) 

The league has averaged 2.9GPG during Sidney's. That is a 14% reduction (or 33% looking at the first 16 years)

 

yusul - 
androb -
yusul - 
androb - 
yusul - 
RhinoHog -
Mark1 -

I take Messier first if I am building a team from scratch.


Mark

THAT'S how you won the Bieber sweepstakes....you suck.....lol.

messier over crosby lol. that would be like auston matthews over mcdavid. 


 


 


what metrics are you using to rank Sid ahead of Moose?

Not saying youre wrong.. just curious what you used to come to that consensus?

they are very even after their 1'st 1000 games in goals and points

Moose finished 3rd over all in PTS all time
2 mvps
2 playoff MVP
6 cups total ( 2 without wayne )

by what metric is sid "better"



sid has:
2 art ross (which is why we judge grets so high: points), 2 conn smythe to mark's 1.

messier had 20 year to win a scoring title and never did.
other notable facts when you look inside their 1000 games:

sid:

was the first player to get 100 points and 100 penalty min.
played the fewest games played by team leading scorer
was the youngest player to hit 200 points
was the youngest player to hit 2 100 point seasons, and he played in a point deprived era.
has lead the league in goals 1x.

messier has never lead the league in either goals nor points.

sid has better physical attributes, like top speed, edgework and passing. better ppg. 1.28 sid, vs. 1.07, and 1.07 is playing with grets on your team and in the 80s.

imo release is about similar if you account for moose using a wooden, but he did awesome at the 4 corner events at the all star and is an excellent sniper. i'd rate him slightly better than sid, but sid generates so much power and speed he creates openings on goalies. moose is more physical and is a better leader. but i'd still take crosby in a draft, or rank him higher on a top 50 list.

messier played at he same time as Wayne and Mario - tough to win a scoring title with #1 and #2 all time playing at the same time

but the PPG after 1000 games are virtually identical 1.28

if sid keeps up the scoring pace for another 10 years i may change my mind

and Messier didnt play on the same line with Gretzky.. they played PP together but very little 5v5

and yes scoring is down.. because wayne and Mario arent scoring 200 pts a season.

if you look at the points leaders just before the GWG era its 123 ppg

then explodes during wayne / mario years and back down to 100 + an average

I'm guessing messier would be very similar playing in todays game numbers wise.. and has 6 CUPS

I think we overlook messier because he played with the 2 GOATS





first point is true, but he could have lead the league in goals at various points, as grets was only bored enough one season to see how many goals he could score.  also he did have several years to win the points as gwg was out and so was super mario due to cancer. 


 


what i mean playing with grets, is that if you have two #1 lines, then the second line is a lot more open on matchups. I believe moose did play some pp time with grets, but i have to look back. 


 


i think messier would be getting around 1 ppg in this era.  6 cups playing with wayne for several of those doesn't impress me as much. 


 


i'm not overlooking messier, in that era you had jagr, modano, lafontaine, oates, thornton, hull, federov, bure, sakic, yzerman, forsberg, mogilny, nieuwendyk, gilmour, selanne etc.  there were a lot of stars in that era.  


you cant count messiers cups with wayne and not say the same about crosby and Malkin

malkin is 1.17 PPG he's probably top 5-10 in the league since he debuted

the difference is Messier won 2 without wayne
wayne 0 without messier
sid 0 ( so far ) without malkin

I like sid - all time great - top 5 most likely

but I cant put him ahead of messier yet

the kid has some work to do

Same as Mcd has some work to do to get into the list of GOATS.. but I'm guessing he'll get there

Sid> Messier because he has the intangibles Messier had and much more skill. 
Top 10 scoring finishes:

Messier -2,4,5,5,7,10 (higher some years with no Gretzky & Lemieux. Would have had one Art Ross)

Crosby -1,1,2,2,3,3,3,5,6,10 Not to mention Injuries cost Crosby 4 seasons in his prime. And likely another 3-4 Art Ross trophies.

Crosby dominated statistically more than anyone not named Gretzky/Lemieux (and arguably Howe/Jagr)

Messier isn’t a top 20 talent.

Gretzky>Lemieux. Ultimately because Gretzky did it and Lemieux maybe could have done it.

Sure health played a factor. But Gretzky was more committed, focused and had more killer instinct. That’s the difference. And how much of Gretzky’s mindset vs Lemieux’s is the reason their health was different. Lemieux was notorious for being lazy when it came to fitness.

McDavid>Matthews. Easiest one so far. Matthews scoring a bunch of goals on a much better team over 20 games doesn’t change that.

MrColdCock -

McDavid>Matthews. Easiest one so far. Matthews scoring a bunch of goals on a much better team over 20 games doesn’t change that.

They train together,  to say it's an easy comparison is ridiculous. Matthews was sheltered his first 2 years to learn to play a 2 way game


McDavid had free reign on his team to do whatever he wanted.


Time will tell

papa pump -
MrColdCock -

McDavid>Matthews. Easiest one so far. Matthews scoring a bunch of goals on a much better team over 20 games doesn’t change that.

They train together,  to say it's an easy comparison is ridiculous. Matthews was sheltered his first 2 years to learn to play a 2 way game


McDavid had free reign on his team to do whatever he wanted.


Time will tell

Including this year.



McDavid 1,1,1,2,2 


Matthews 5,9


Like I said. There’s no comparison. It’s not close.


McDavid has been the best player in the league for possibly 5 years (Sid has a claim the first couple years). Matthews is making a case now as possibly a top 10 player.


McDavid has been expected to be a leader from the moment he entered the league. He’s had the best defensemen in the league circling they’re calendar in preparation for playing him. He’s been the show since he entered the league. There’s no comparison.


But yes. Time will tell. I’ll agree with that.


 


 

better discussion and less bannings than most hockey forums lol.

MrColdCock -
papa pump -
MrColdCock -

McDavid>Matthews. Easiest one so far. Matthews scoring a bunch of goals on a much better team over 20 games doesn’t change that.

They train together,  to say it's an easy comparison is ridiculous. Matthews was sheltered his first 2 years to learn to play a 2 way game


McDavid had free reign on his team to do whatever he wanted.


Time will tell

Including this year.



McDavid 1,1,1,2,2 


Matthews 5,9


Like I said. There’s no comparison. It’s not close.


McDavid has been the best player in the league for possibly 5 years (Sid has a claim the first couple years). Matthews is making a case now as possibly a top 10 player.


McDavid has been expected to be a leader from the moment he entered the league. He’s had the best defensemen in the league circling they’re calendar in preparation for playing him. He’s been the show since he entered the league. There’s no comparison.


But yes. Time will tell. I’ll agree with that.


 


 

Only issue I have with this is "Matthews making a case now as possibly a top 10 player".


He is top absolutely top 10. Anyone who watches him regularly would agree. He plays a 180 foot game, one of the best at takeaways in the league, has the same amount of ES points as McDavid this year (against the same weak North teams and was comparable to Connor last season, who had a few less but in 4 less gp) and of course, an elite shooter/scorer: Last year he finished one goal behind Ovi and Pastrnak.

McDavid, Mackinnon, Draisatl, Kucherov, Hedman, Vasilevsky, Crosby all above him IMO

 

Josi, Kane, Ovi, Marchand, Pasternak, Bergeron, Kopitar, Scheifele, Barkov, Stamkos, Marner right there with him. He’s on fire right now, and maybe he’s taken that next step this year. But it’s only been 20 games and there certainly was no case for him before this season.

Forgot some guys. Panaran for sure

Kvesh… Please tell me you’re not from toronto… do i see you on the fucking street?
do you get me my coffee?
i dont get much fast food so i know you arent spitting in my fries

You can’t be serious… “If the Soviets had a goalie”

The Soviets had Vladislav Tretiak, the greatest goalie to never have played in the NHL. I wish the Soviets had let him go when Montreal signed him in '83, would have been awesome to see him suit up.

I would add that had he been with Montreal that year, he might have been the difference between Edmonton winning their 1st cup.

He also coached some goalies while with the Blackhawks you might have heard of who went on to have pretty good careers. Belfour, Hasek and Thibault.

Tretiak was great, but was retired in the tournaments I was talking about (1984 & 1987).

I’m not sure exactly when you’re referring to when talking about Montreal beating Edmonton. I’m pretty sure the only time they ever played in the playoffs was ‘81. Sure better goaltending would have helped them there. That Montreal team aged pretty quickly after that.