Really SCARED!

MS,

Boo!

Just kidding, you sound like you were easy to scare; I mean those kids got you scared.

Ridgeback is correct, intensity can not be sustained. Sprinters operate at a high intensity but only over a short distance. Faith is a marathon, slow and steady wins that race.

Regarding the Inquisition, after fighting the Muslims for nearly 800 years the Spanish felt it time to settle accounts with the people who aided them, who worked against the Spanish in the war, in simpler times these people were called traitors and executed.

These traitors (conversos) were false converts from Judaism and Islam, for a good retelling of the Inquisiton see, The Spanish Inquisition by Kamen. Netanyanhu's (sp?) book on the Inquisition covers the conversos in detail. Because of the Inquisition the Spanish did not suffer the effects of religious wars like the rest of Europe (where hundreds of thousands died in a few short years). Comparatively the Inquisition was benign, 3000 dead over 350 years.

what would you guys say if the clip showed muslims but the same content?

Muslims slammed three planes into buildings and one into a field killing 3000 people in an afternoon, you believe there is some equivelency?

On a busy summer day in the summer of 1998 catholics exploded a car bomb in the middle of the busy market town of Omagh. The blast left around 220 people injured or maimed and killed 28. I believe there is equivalency.

The point is that it is ridiculous to say catholics exploded that bomb just as it is to say muslims brought down those planes. In fact terrorists committed both atrocities. Religion is used as a mask for terror in both cases and it frightening to witness the level of brainwashing that can be achieved using it. Any religion or cause can be used in this way. Radicalisation in the name of violence is definately something to be scared of, whatever the cause.

"On a busy summer day in the summer of 1998 catholics exploded a car bomb in the middle of the busy market town of Omagh. The blast left around 220 people injured or maimed and killed 28. I believe there is equivalency."

Do you see a worldwide Catholic plot to overthrow governments? Do you see tens (hundreds?) of thousands of Catholics rioting in the streets over artistic works that disrespect the Catholic religion (Piss Christ, Virgin Mary in Elephant Dung)? Do you see millions of Catholics supporting the group responsible for the Omagh boming?

No, no and no. In fact, (some) members of only one religion behave in this way: Islam.

The Omagh bombing was the work of a small splinter group called the "Real IRA," who were active in the late nineties/early 00s. Estimates put the Real IRA at about 150 members. Compared to the tens of millions (or more) of Muslims around the world that support terrorist activity, this is nothing. How can you possibly say there is "equivalency" there?

Pentecostaphobia.

Christians riot, kill muslims:

"Nigeria holds its breath: Are riots over?
Onitsha is calm after two days of anti-Muslim riots, say press reports, but all is not well in the southern Nigerian city. "Mobs stopped killing and looting in this battered Nigerian city Thursday and turned to disposing of the evidence in the crudest of ways," reports The Washington Post. "With smoldering bonfires fueled by pieces of wood and old tires, men burned the remains of their Muslim victims on downtown streets, leaving behind charred legs, skulls, and shoulders that motorists swerved to avoid." Both the Post and the Associated Press quote Ifeanyi Ese (Eze), who was found writing on one of the destroyed mosques, "Muhammad is a man, but Jesus is from above."

"We don't want these mosques here anymore," he told the reporters. "These people are causing all the problems all over the world because they don't fear God. We don't want Muhammad anymore."

Reuters quotes another resident saying, "We are very happy that this thing is happening so that the north will learn their lesson."

The concern now is that Muslims in northern Nigeria will retaliate for the retaliatory attacks, which reportedly killed twice as many people as the attacks against Christians in Maiduguri and elsewhere earlier in the week."

Christian mob forms outside BBC offices in attempt to stop broadcast of Jerry Springer the musical:

"A mere two weeks after the Behzti affair, in January this year, 45 000 Evangelical Christians contacted the BBC via email to try and prevent the showing of Jerry Springer – the Opera. This modern opera is a satire on popular culture and sexual mores, extremely frank, carrying innumerable swear words, very provocative language, and treats Jesus with irreverence.

What it also does is treat popular culture very seriously, making clear some of its dangers. The BBC did not bow to the pressure and went ahead with the broadcast. Hundreds of Christian protestors then rallied outside the BBC buildings before and during the broadcast. There was no doubt in anyone's mind that they had been influenced by the Sikhs' successful protest.

Again, the papers reporting this story were divided in their response. A veteran journalist on The Times said that blasphemy is not acceptable from a publicly funded broadcaster; the Daily Mail claims the protesters failed to understand that the show was not an attack on God, Jesus or Christianity, but an attack on the values of modern television."

And if you have ever been to the republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland or Scotland, you will know that support for the IRA, casual or not, is very high amongst certain groups of Catholics while support for the UDF and similar is very high amongst certain Protestants. You see guys in the street in Glasgow with a red hand tattoo, you know what their politics are, and you know what they think about blowing up Catholics in the name of their "religion".

Just because Christianity is generally better off in this respect than Islam at the present time does not mean it is immune from it. For me it has nothing to do with the religion and more to do with the society it comes from. Society at war = religion fuelling war. Backward society supports backward religion, and vice versa. Thinking that you are better than this because of the specifics of your religion is dangerously complacent. The clips on this thread are scary.

Actually Chance Catholics did no such thing, Irish nationalists did. There was no religious motivation behind that action, it was political There was a religious action behind attacking the great satan of Sept 11. As a matter of fact the religious proof is in the very date, Sept 11, that day in 1683 was the last day the armies of Islam were a force in the West, early the next morning the Poles/Lituanians arrived and cut them to ribbons, attacking on that date was Islam telling the West (Christendom) the battle is rejoined. Again, no equivelentcy.

Christianity created Western Civilization, there's a reason you're not bowing to the east and praying 5 times a day, it's called Christendom. Time to thank the French for the Crusades, the Spanish for the Reconquest, the French for Charles Martel, The Vienese for Lepanto, the Austrians for First and Second Vienna, and the Poles and Lithuanians for relieving the Austrians, you guys ROCK! THANKS FOR SAVING WESTERN CIVILIZATION!

Lol, no, no secterian ideaologies here. Just move along.

Christianity created Western Civilization

The ancient Greeks and Romans created western civilisation. Christians built on what was already a strong foundation. I don't think most non-classicists appreciate just how much of the western way of thinking has Hellenic or Roman roots. Read a little Victor Davis Hanson for a basic insight into such matters (eg. The Western Way of War - in which he discusses how hoplite warfare has shaped western attitudes towards armed conflict).

It's no coincidence that centuries later, during the Enlightenment, it was Athens and Sparta that thinkers looked to when examining whether democracy, and for that matter what kind of democracy, was a superior method for running a state.*

Besides, if the Greeks hadn't defeated the Persians at Marathon none of the events you mentioned would even have mattered. Western civilisation as we know it simply would not have existed in the first place.


  • See for example Ian Macgregor Morris, The Paradigm of Democracy: Sparta in Enlightenment Thought in Thomas J. Figueira (Ed.), Spartan Society. (Swansea: The Classical Press of Wales, 2004)

lol @ Christianity creating Western Civ.

Really, our cultural roots (as IBI said) are Greek and Roman. Our spiritual roots are Old Testament (Jewish) based. The religion that became Judaism changed the way people think and act. Read "Gifts of the Jews" and "Heritage". Both clearly show how Judaism led to the creation of things we take for granted today.

MS

I agree with IBI. I would say our spiritual roots are more Egyptian though.

"Actually Chance Catholics did no such thing, Irish nationalists did. There was no religious motivation behind that action, it was political There was a religious action behind attacking the great satan of Sept 11."

religious bigotry in Ireland and Scotland is part of the whole parcel Ocianain..you can't just call it nationalism because it suits you. People have died for religion there in the same pointless way as in the middle east, just on a smaller scale.

Also, are you really trying to suggent that the men who flew the planes into the WTC spoke for the whole of Islam? The next time a Christian does something dumb in the name of the religion, like the examples in my last post, we should just blame Christianity in general, yes?

Hawker-

I'm not disputing the impact Christianity has had in preserving and helping to shape western civilisation. But I reckon that to create something (as oppossed to helping to develop it) you have to be there first so to speak. Western civilisation already existed as something distinct, which is why I don't think it's fair to say that Christinity created western civilisation.

To use an analogy, over the last century the US has contributed a tremendous amount to the preservation, and to some degree the cultural shaping, of western civilisation. But we wouldn't say that they created it.


On the subject of Romans and Jews, the Roman attitude to Judaism was pretty interesting. Obviously the two groups collided at times, and even went to war against one another. And a lot of Romans did have some disdain for Jewish customs. For example:

"The Jews regard as profane all that we hold sacred, they permit all that we abhor."

  • Tacitus, Histories 5.4.1

But at the same time, they respected the fact that Judaism was part of such an ancient tradition.

"These rites, whatever their origins, are sanctioned by their antiquity." (ibid. 5.5)

Some Roman emperors gave their patronage to the Jews, and treated them as a favoured group (eg. Philo, Embassy to Gaius 155-8 claims that Jews enjoyed the patronage of Augustus).

Under Decius, when everyone was ordered to carry out a sacrifice (or sprinkle some incense) in the name of the Roman gods as part of the millennial celebrations of Rome, Jews were exempted from this. It was acknowledged that they believed in another god instead, and the Romans let it slide. Christians, however, were not given the same treatment. When they refused to take part in the rituals they were persecuted.

I would just stay away from the word "create" altogether.  You can always go back until you reach pre-history if you want to find the "source" of some civilization.

Chance said, "religious bigotry in Ireland and Scotland is part of the whole parcel Ocianain..you can't just call it nationalism because it suits you."

Errrr....well I can, as I did. I know there's plenty of bigotry everywhere, it's not unique to Ireland or Scotland; it's in England, France Germany, Russia and Israel. It's everywhere, we use to call moral failures sins, I still see things that way so I,m not shocked by peoples shortcomings, I wish/pray they would work to overcome them, but we are sinners and fall short.

Regarding Ireland, as you know many of Irelands greatest advocates and leaders in Catholic emancipation were Protestants. It's not as cut and dried as you paint it.

"People have died for religion there in the same pointless way as in the middle east, just on a smaller scale."

In the West people died for money and power, not religion. The English ruling class split the Church for money and land, not theological reasons. Likewise the Princes who supported Luther wanted power. Fighting for religious "truth" was a great way to justify a massive seizure of other peoples wealth.

"Also, are you really trying to suggent that the men who flew the planes into the WTC spoke for the whole of Islam?"

That's your straw man formulation not my belief, obviously no one can speak for the whole of Islam, one Muslim disagreeing would falsify the assertion. However, Islam has been a enemy of the West since its' founding, to argue otherwise is to deny history and borders on delusional.

"The next time a Christian does something dumb in the name of the religion, like the examples in my last post, we should just blame Christianity in general, yes?"

No. Again specious argumentation, Muslim hordes sacked Antioch, Jerusalem, North Africa, invaded Spain (the Spanish fought a almost 800 year old civil war to free their country of the invaders) and France (where Martel pushed them back). Their last large attack on the West was crushed at Second Vienna Sept 12, 1683. The defeat was so total they were reduced to piracy as a means to worry the West (Barbary pirates) Jefferson finished them up. These are cold hard historical facts, by the way the people doing all the saving were Catholics (excepting the Barbary pirates, it was about time someone else stepped up and helped), one reason the Protestant revolution was not crushed out of hand was the Hapsburgs were busy defending the West from yet another wave of Muslim invasions.

There's a lot more, didn't even cover the Eastern Church/Empire and their side of the story. The history of Islam and the West is War. They are now back, we'll see if we have the guts our forfathers did or if we'll roll over and give up.

MS SAID, "lol @ Christianity creating Western Civ.
Really, our cultural roots (as IBI said) are Greek and Roman."

Really? You contend the seperation of powers is a G&R invention? That the G&R's invented the idea of human rights? If you do, you are wrong, the Church created that ("Render unto Ceaser...) and a whole lot more, I will agree though that we are becoming more and more pagan, we kill our babies just like the pagans did.

"Our spiritual roots are Old Testament (Jewish) based."

True only to the extent that Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism and Christians are the real Jews.

"The religion that became Judaism changed the way people think and act. Read "Gifts of the Jews" and "Heritage"."

Read both, not impressed with neither. Cahill's only readable work was about the Irish, his second rate purple prose and feminist ideology ruins the rest.

"Both clearly show how Judaism led to the creation of things we take for granted today. "

Judaism led to Christianity, Christianity created the modern world. Until relatively recently Jews were never known for achivement in high culture. For example, a book called, Important Jewish Writers of the 13th Century would be very slim. Ditto 14th, 15th, 16th and 17th centuries. Only with the destruction of the Jewish ghettos and their forced contact with the modern world (the Church destroyed the walls of the Jewish ghetto in Rome over the objection of Jewish leadership for example) did the Jews really blossom culturaly.

Ocianain, as long as you talk about Islam as the enemy, you are making the mistake pointed out in my "strawman" argument. In fact you are not talking about Islam, just as I'm not talking about Catholicism when I speak of IRA bombs. The percentage of dangerous radicals may be different depending on the religion, but all religions have them.

ibi is right. I personally believe that if the romans hadnt destroyed the temple, christianity would have been a side note in history. A jewish cult that would have had little influence. Call me crazy but I have logical reasons why but really all of our learning and govt was started with the greeks and romans.