Subject:
From: lkfmdc
Date: 08-Feb-01 | 12:23 AM
San Shou is a sport that also incorporates striking in addition to it's throwing and thus the decision was made from its inception to use gloves. The decision to use gloves for the striking portion means that san shou free sparring (what the Judo people refer to as Randori) and sport san shou (what the Judo people refer to as Shiai) does not allow for the use of various gripping methods. Thus, San Shou throwing for the most part involves hooking or hugging with the arms.
There are many ways of classifying and describing the many throwing techniques found in San Shou. However, I have found it most useful to divide them into three major categories
1. Throws after kick catches.
San Shou fighters are quite found of catching kicks and then attempting to either sweep out the supporting leg or attempting an actual throw. These are probably the most common and successful throwing techniques used in actual competition for the following reason.
As throwing is such a big part of San Shou almost all the fighters learn and practice sinking their base and sprawling. Many also use many forms of cross face and head manipulations. It is often very hard to clinch or shoot in on a san shou fighter and in the process of doing so, you often get hit and or kicked. The hit/kick will score points against you. At the same time, you may not actually complete your throw and thus may get NO POINTS.
Say I try and clinch and you kick my leg and land a solid head shot (1 point each = 2 points lost). I try and throw you but I am unsuccessful and the referee breaks us. I scored nothing. I am now losing 2 to 0.
2. Throws from the "shoot"
Using the "shoot", i.e. Lowering your level and driving forward to attack the legs. Quite effective against an overly aggressive striker as MMA has demonstrated but not without it's possible problems. In san shou, many have excellent sprawls. A failed shoot and good sprawl will put you on the ground, face down, and you will loose points.
In fact, the San Shou idea is that points are warded for any position that would be bad in a real combat situation. Often, when dropping to one knee to shoot, if your forward momentum is stopped, you lose a point as well. Even if you are not flattened out.
Poor shoots also result in scores against you from strikes as you enter (as above). Still shooting for the legs remains popular in san shou, especially in international competition among big wrestling countries like Iran, Egypt and Russia.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: lkfmdc
Date: 08-Feb-01 | 12:35 AM
3. Throws from upper body clinching
Blocking punches and kicks often leads to upper body clinching. From this position there are a number of throws used in san shou such as hip throws, out reaping sweeps, head and arm throws, lifting throws (suplex), etc. This is perhaps the hardest throw to get because of the sinking and sprawling that san shou fighters do. In fact, it is often only used against kickboxing and Muay Thai fighters in San Shou competition because we feel they will not be well versed in such defenses. Sorry guys :)
It would be very hard to explain the kick catches and throws from the first category, sorry and let me think about it. As for the techniques we use from the shoot in order or preference/success;
1. Single leg (head outside)
2. Double leg tackle
3. Single leg with inner hooking
4. Double leg lifting
5. Single leg into knee sweeping
As for the techniques we use from the upper body clinch in order or preference/success;
1. Cross body step throw (Taioshi in Judo?)
2. Hip throw
3. Outer reaping sweep
4. Head and arm throw
5. Shoulder throw
Another issue in San Shou regarding throwing is whether to go for high points or impact.
In San Shou, a throw you complete while remaining standing over your opponent is the highest scoring, like an total victory in Sambo. Thus, many fighters focus on these throws.
However, there is also a school of thought that even though they only win 1 point, a throw in which you drive your opponent into the ground and land on top of them (an impact throw) will do a lot of damage, fatigue your opponent and win the match for you just as well.
Most of the impact throws I use come from the Russian and former Soviet San Shou teams. With their sambo background they developed a lot of very nasty high impact throws. We mix them in with the high score throws to test the waters. If we think a person is weak at falling and has no base, we up the impact throws
The following is from the upcoming NYKKA San Shou manual;
A wide variety of throws and takedowns allow you to use them in response to many situations, from many different positions and by utilising and attacking almost every part of the body.
For the purposes of definition, a full body throw involves both of the attacker's feet leaving the ground as the body goes up and over your centre of gravity. A takedown is a much simpler undertaking. Any technique which puts the attacker on the ground and which is not a full body throw is considered a takedown.
Full body throws can be devastating but are more difficult to set up and complete. A takedown is much easier to set up and complete. The disadvantage of takedowns is that they seldom disable the opponent and thus require a submission technique to complete the encounter.
There are many ways of classifying the many throwing and takedown techniques but only a few points are truly important when actually executing them. Upper body throws (hip throw, shoulder throw, etc.) Generally require pulling and/or turning. Lower body throws (single leg, double leg, inner hooking, etc.) Are more "drive and push" ("shoot" in or penetration step). There are also lifting throws (front lifting, rear lifting, fireman's carry, etc.). Lifting throws are by far the most dangerous (to the opponent) but require excellent leg and hip strength. To achieve a lifting throw, you need to lower your level, pop your hips underneath your opponent, bend knees, bring your feet together and lift!
All good throwing techniques can be broken down into three distinct parts. First, there is the entry. You must move safely, efficiently and quickly close enough to your opponent to execute the technique. Second, you must unbalance your opponent before you can actually throw them. Finally, there is the actual execution of the technique. For example, examine the hip throw.
The entry for the hip throw requires you to step in and turn your body so that your hips are touching the opponent at a level below their own hips. The opponent must be in close contact, failing to enter properly and even the strongest person will be unable to throw their opponent. Once the proper position is achieved, the opponent is pulled onto the hip and unbalanced. Only once these two steps are taken can the opponent be thrown.
Finally, remember the "THREE SECOND RULE" when you grapple. If you cannot achieve your technique in 3 seconds then stop grappling and hit your attacker!
Subject: RE: INFO
From: HULC
Date: 08-Feb-01 | 12:51 PM
Question: Would you say San shou is more like Judo with striking, or more alike to Muay Thai with grappling?
Or to put it another way. Is San shou based more upon grappling/throwing (& submissions?)with a little striking. Or is it based more on striking with a little grappling?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: lkfmdc
Date: 08-Feb-01 | 02:24 PM
I tend to think that striking and grappling in san shou is not dividable. Grappling sets up striking, striking sets up grappling, grappling beats striking, striking beats grappling. Very balanced training to be a good fighter though some specialise in one aspect.
It is very wrestling like though in my opinion. More in common with sambo, free style, catch than with maybe Japanese style judo
Subject: RE: INFO
From: lkfmdc
Date: 09-Feb-01 | 09:30 PM
You can also visit http://www.geocities.com/necaf which has some resources on san shou which I posted.
Subject: RE: INFO
From: Hayashi
Date: 11-Feb-01 | 03:27 AM
Lkfmdc,
If you have someone in a guillotine hold and you fall backwards on your back making sure that the opponent's head actually hits the ground first, is this legal in san shou? I was told in judo its a variation of sumo gaeshi?
Subject: RE: INFO
From: lkfmdc
Date: 11-Feb-01 | 03:44 AM
As you would hit the ground first, most likely you would lose a point. Falling backward, into anything like a guard, is frowned upon in san shou