dear khun kao,
ý agree with your point on that mt have also some things from abroad, but at least you can smell tradition and unique things to a large extent,which are very strong in the endo-china arts...(you can see this smell in "bando,payuhuth,bersilat" easily...
the main thing is that the burmase and thais have taken things and adapted it to ring sport rules without losing the traditional taste and also created a different methodolgy in training and fights."i.e. being splashed,hit,kicked" very very ago...
this is the main difference between the chinese and endo china arts...
ý been recognizing chinese styles more than 25 years,as well, and also know the difficulties in getting common things since there are hundreds of styles, and know the performance of chinese style world how to constructe a common system among those groups...
that's why during the first years of "world wushu competitions" it have been very difficult...(since one style is very strong mostly in hand technics and the other very strong in sweeps...it is not so easy to control...in the meantime, there is also one thing, how to get a place between contact sports who jumped in front of the traditional ones...
the easiest way is just copying many advantegous things from succesful parts of leading contact arts and erect a very very hybrid new system ,and of course" to the proudness" of the culture to give just a name from the history of own culture...
what ,unacceptable is just calling it as "the son of ancient chinese martial arts", of course this is an art erected by chinese authorities ,the name is also traditional and from history,but very new and far away from the methodology,training way of traditional chinese martial arts...
otherwise, ý am not underestimating anything...
furthermore, if you go also a little deep into any other martial art(may be goju-ryu) your ideas,observations might be affected also easily and you will be influenced and make some changes also...but ,if you have a strong analytical ,and open mind concept you can easily seperate things or combine without losing the main content and will try "to give sezar's right to sezar..."
Ercan is such a funny guy! He amuses me so much :) On one hand he insults Shuai Jiao by saying that since it isn't well known how could it be any good? On the other hand he keeps talking about Turkish oil wrestling which 99.5% of the world has never heard of and most people would think is some sort of gay pornography!!
Ercan are you a trainer of these oil wrestlers? Or a promoter? You ready to fly in a team, put them up and organize the event? Otherwise your "challenge" is internet trolling.
You have yet to establish anything about yourself to prove we should take ANYTHING you say seriously. Everything you have said so far shows you have NO CLUE what you are talking about. Your level of ignorance is ASTOUNDING! Yet, like most internet trolls, you are so sure you are right. You're a joke.
dear khun kao,
ý think that ý never said or argued that san shou people (of course nowadays staff,since the formers couldn't find the opportunity so easy to travel or contact with others due to very limited poor transportation & communication facilities in the history) did copy just muay thai...
ý said only that they have taken the advantageous,effective parts of different styles ,analysed them and made the optimum synthesis according to their needs...and of course this has been done after the financial support of the chinese government...
of course every style (except moderns like brasilian jutsu,vale tudo with very extreme modifications) is doing this ,but only to some extent and only with small steps without losing the "flavour&taste" about "being unique without losing too much from tradition"...
that's why ý like "thai and burmase" martial arts...they just could see the reality very ago and modified many things "methodology,training types,strategie etc" they modified the ring system during 1920's and tried to switch from ancient methods to modern training types by keeping and adding the useful,effective sides of their traditional art, whereas (except western boxing)the others were sleeping due to the proudness and ignoring any other culture...of course, the thais and burmase could digest this in a long period of time, they didn't say :
"ok guys, we constructed a new system just within 5-6 years and the roots ,technics ,methodoly has pure traditional aspects..."
if you observe from a global point of view the developments in every martial art especialy within 20 years you can see many organizations have realized many things to maximum extent despite to the cost of losing the traditional side, because of high level ambition ...
(of course everybody tried to develop,but some tried this without losing the unique flavour,basics and just has ambition only in developing by degisting well...)
Heavy Leg...
"Again though, it is a Thai Sport and as such, their rules are their rules. I mean, how would Americans feel if suddenly someone from Europe or Asia wanted to revise the scoring system or rules of the NBA?"
EXACTLY! There are reasons upon reasons why Muay Thai is scored the way it is. Much of it just has to do with Thai culture and what THEY like to see in a fight!
As I said, I really like the fact that Muay Thai gets scored on "style" or "flavor" in certain areas. It makes the sport more unique and actually helps preserve the fighting system AS IS! If you enter a Muay Thai match, you'll lose if you don't know Muay Thai, unless you KO your opponent. So guys who go into a match with heavy hands had best back those hands up with some kicks and knees or they're still going to lose the match.
This prevents fighters from just learning the most effective elements of the sport and only using them to fight. Face it, if that were the case, mostly all you would see in a match is fighters throwing leg kicks and boxing each other.
Sorry for rambling on, just my early morning random thoughts...
Khun Kao
As much as I hate to admit it, I suspect that LKFMDC is correct in his synopsis of Muay Thai vs. San Da.
Muay Thai is scored on 'flavor', and so what often happens is that a more effective fighter will lose to a MT stylist due to not comprehending the scoring. On the one hand, this is one of the things that I actually like about Muay Thai, but I realize that it detracts from effective fighting. Remember, boxing skills, as important as they are, don't really count for DICK in a Muay Thai match unless you drop some VERY heavy bombs and either stagger your opponent or drop him.
Now, about the Side Kick... The side kick is actually part of Muay Thai's arsenal. It is actually a variation of the "Teep", or thrust kick. It's just never used. Muay Thai kicks come in two main categories, round kicks (Tae) or thrust kicks (Teep). All kicks (with few exceptions) are put into these two categories.
It is a common misunderstanding that the side kick isn't used in Muay Thai due to being ineffective. This is NOT true! The side kick is VERY effective! The problem is that considering what the rest of Muay Thai's arsenal is, the side kick is hard to use effectively in combination. And, though Muay Thai has the tools to defend and counter a side kick, the fact of the matter is that because Thai boxers don't train with it, they are therefore unable to defend against it.
Regardless of whether or not a Thai boxer uses Side Kicks, he should practice defending and countering them. The more internationally recognized and practiced Muay Thai becomes, the more often a Thai boxer will have to face someone who uses them.
Khun Kao
Oh lord, I just read the crane69 moron's account. Someone send the guy a dollar so he can buy a clue!!
For many Muay Thai people, it's "brave" to stand and trade. This thinking also equates into denouncing anyone who "sticks and moves". Thus a lot of the Muay Thai people have complained that the San Da people did not stand and trade with them. There is no rule that you have to fight the Muay Thai team's fight! Teh Thais said it was "not effective" yet the blows landed! That is effective. You don't have to hang around after landing a blow for it to be effective
Notice how they criticize the side kick. For years we heard that the side kick doesn't work. That it wouldn't land and that it would be so easy to counter kick the leg after the side kick is thrown. Well, the side kicks LANDED and the Muay Thai fighter didn't land counter leg kicks. So they call them "ineffective" but apparently not so! And of course you are gonna lose if the other guy lands more stuff
But here's my prediction, the third of these events is going to take place in Thailand. In Thailand, the Thai fighters are going to win ALL the matches and they are going to hold it up as "proof" they are better. It will be crap. Want to know why? San Shou scoring as they were doing it in China is points for anything that lands. That is equally fair. A point for a punch, a point for a leg kick, 2 points for a kick/knee to body, 2 or 3 points for any throw. IN Thailand they score on "flavor", who lands the knees, who fights in the style, etc.. So even if the Chinese fighter lands 30 side kicks, if the Thai fighter finally clinches and throws knees, he wins. Save this prediction.
I m not sure whether it is the same event I heard from thai article or not. If it is, thai audience are so piss off with the event. One reason is that they dun get use to see fighter got thrown and earn some points. As the thai rule does not allow those judo throw..or even they allow fighter wont get any point from that.
Another reason which i m not sure is that..although they were allow to use elbow, and knees BUT u know no POINTS for that...I think those techniques are very important in MT.. some thai folks even say if they take elbow and knees out...they wouldnt call it MT..
In my oppinion, this is not an event to prove which style is better, I think thai promoter wanna make more money on MT and the deal is throwing get points..knees and elboes no points. let s imagine if all thai fighters KO or won all chinese...it wont make much excitement in china anymore...However, thais shouldnt find excuse about no points on knee and elbows..
I think chinese did very good job..they studied how thai fight..and what r their weakpoints, This time i dont think..thai team did study about the chinese and how to protect themselves being thrown... (underestimate)..
This s just my oppinion and not trying to prove who s better than who... ok takecare
Please be a little more informed before you post something. They agreed to unified rules where Elbows and knees DID result in points, including TWO points (as always in san shou) for kicks to the body AND knee to body. So Thai could well earn points with their knees. But to get that close you are also able to be thrown. And that is the weakness Muay Thai has vs San Da. the throw. Thai people can be upset but that was the point, to let both sides do their thing. And throws are our thing and they were legal and worth points.
interesting, exploring differences and adopting strategy's will help us all.
*in total agreement*
Yes, the main problem with a side kick is that is just about all you can do after throwing it and you are generally left standing sideways to your opponent, not being able to use footwork effectively to move and follow-up with a combination.
I personally don't think it is worth having a pissing match over Muay Thai vs. Sanda in a sporting light. The reason being is that scoring is based on human perception of what "scores" or what counts more based on what technique has been landed.
I personally am a big fan of Muay Thai and have been accused of being militant in my support of it. But, I disagree with the Thais in that boxing skills are unfairly biased against while kneeing and kicking is more favorably biased. Again though, it is a Thai Sport and as such, their rules are their rules. I mean, how would Americans feel if suddenly someone from Europe or Asia wanted to revise the scoring system or rules of the NBA? I think we would thumb our nose at it and laugh.
Results are at http://members.tripod.com/~crane69/As usual, take the author's opinions with a grain of salt as he is not much of an expert on Sanda OR Muay Thai
Ercan is someone with very limited knowledge who is convinced he knows all the answers. There are a lot of people like this. No point in arguing with them. If we are lucky, we can ignore him and he will go away
DEAR FRIENDS,
AM I WRONG?...
yes..
come on guys.. you may not agree, you may have more knowledge on the subject... but let's not get mean!!
DEAR FIGHTER BLUE,
OF COURSE THERE ARE SOME LOW KICKS IN TRADITIONAL CHINESE STYLES, HOWEVER THE WAY OF APPLYING THOSE KICKS IS VERY DIFFERENT.I.E. THEY WERE EITHER APPLYING DIRECT SIDE AND FRONT KICKS WITH FEET TO THE JOINTS ,KNEES OR SOMETIMES WITH JUST SWEEPING PURPOSE...(EVEN WING CHUN, IN WHICH SOME EMPHASIZE IS GIVEN ALSO TO MANY LOW LEG KICKS NEVER WAS USING SHIN KICKS...) THE WAY OF LOW KICK IN TRADITIONAL CHINESE STYLES IS TOTALY DIFFERENT...BUT, IF YOU LOOK TO THE SANDA OR SAN SHOU PEOPLE THEY ARE NOW WELL LOW KICK PRACTICERS LIKE IN MUAY THAI...AND THIS WAS HAPPENED SUDDENLY JUST WITHIN MAY BE 6-7 YEARS...HISTORICALY ,YOU ONLY CAN TRACE THAT THE EMPHASIZE IS GIVEN TO THE SHIN LOW KICKS IN "THAI,BURMASE ARTS ,SAVATE (EVEN TO CLOSE TIME THEY WERE NOT TOO MUCH USING SHIN LOW KICK ,HOWEVER THEY DEVELOPED IT PROPORTIONAL ),AFTER 1968'S KYOKUSHIN KAI AND SOME JAPANESE EFFECTED STYLES LIKE ASHIHARA...(I AM NOT COUNTING MODERN KICK BOXING) THERE WASN'T ANY TRADITIONAL CHINESE STYLE WHICHY IS THROWING SHIN LOW KICKS LIKE THEY BEGIN TO DO IN SANDA MATCHES...
YOU ,NEVER CAN SEE ANY SHIN LOW KICK APPLIED EVEN BY THE OKINAWAN MARTIAL ART PRACTICERS ALTHOUGH IT IS SAID THAT THEY ARE INFLUENCED BY CHINESE ARTS STRONGLY...(OF COURSE THERE ARE ALSO SOME LOW KICKS ,BUT APPLIED TO THE JOINTS MOSTLY IN DIRECT WAY AND WITH UPPER SIDE OF FEET ORV SIDES...)
SECONDLY,
IF SHUHAI JIAO (CHINESE WRESTLING )WAS SO POPULAR AND STRONG,WHERE WAS IT? THERE ISN'T EVEN ANY CHINESE WRESTLING CHAMPS WE HEARD INTERNATIONALY...IF IT WAS SO POWERFUL ,SOME OF THESE GUYS COULD JOIN SOME WRESTLING TOURNAMENTS (IN DIFFERENT ORGANIZATION AND WRESTLING TYPES) AND EARN SOME MONEY ,PRIZE AT LEAST...MOST OF THE JUDOKAS AND GRAPPLERS HAVE TRIED TO DO THIS AT LEAST...
WHAT MAKES ME ANGRY AGAIN,
"TO ERECT A SYSTEM FROM OTHER STYLES ,TO GET THE BEST PRACTICAL TECHNICS AND METHODOLGY OF TRAINING FROM OTHER STYLES WITHOUT ADDING ANYTHING FROM YOUR ORIGINAL ARTS AND THEN SUDDENLY APPEAR IN THE WORLD AND SAY WE ERECTED A SYSTEM WHICH IS SON OF TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS...IF CHINESE STYLES WERE THE PROPER WAY "WHY BRUCE LEEE HAS WASTING HIS TIME WITH BOXING,AND ANY OTHER FULL CONTACT STYLES..."
THE ANSWER IS VERY SIMPLE :
"THE CHINESE HAVE CHOSEN RECENTLY ANOTHER WAY IN TRAINING I.E. THEY CHOSEN THE HARD WAY IN TRAINING I.E "TO BE SPLASHED IN TRAINING ,BEING HURT AND GEING HIT DURING LIKE THE WESTERN AND THAI,BURMASE BOXERS DO AND TO COLLECT THE RESULT" THEY QUIT FROM DOING TECHNICS FOR THE HALF OF THEIR LIVES...
BUT WHAT WAS EXPECTING FROM THEM:
"OK GUYS , WE ARE COLLECTED AND DEVELOPED A NEW SYSTEM BY OBSERVING THE OTHERS2 ADVANTAGES ,IT HAS NOTHING TO DO MOSTLY WITH OUR TRADITIONAL ARTS, BUT WE ARE A SERIOUS GROUP "
OK ,SUCH AN ARGUMENT COULD BE ACCEPTED...AND I WOULD ALSO SUPPORT IT...BUT THEY HAVE CHOSEN ANOTHER WAY...
Dear Ercan,
YES you are wrong. Thanks for asking.
btw. Stop writing in Caps.
Ercan...
I understand what you are saying, but I'm not sure I agree with your take on things. Your opinion seems to be similar to what mine was before I joined this newsgroup and began to learn about the arts of San Shou and San Da from the other forum members.
I will honestly tell you that I have not done much research on these two systems outside of the internet, and we all know that info on the internet is suspect.
But this is my take on the situation...
The modern arts of San Shou and San Da are merely the modern interpretations (i.e.- ring rules) of much older Chinese arts. I have seen some live San Shou matches, and though there are some similarities to Muay Thai, boxing, and other ring arts, it is largely due to being fought in a ring with boxing gloves on. The techniques must be modified a bit to work under the new sport format.
Why the sudden appearance of San Shou and San Da?
Again, my understanding is that the Chinese Gov't, until recently, restricted these groups from practicing and competing in their arts. So in some ways, San Shou and San Da are still in their fledgling days. They are rediscovering themselves.
There may be more to the similarities between Muay Thai and San Shou/San Da then we have considered up to this point. The Thai tribe is originally from Southern China. They migrated from Southern China to Southeast Asia a long time ago, but they are still essentially neighbors.
The techniques of Muay Thai are by no means unique, the Thais were just the ones who thought to make a ring sport out of it. So saying that San Shou and San Da are just copying Muay Thai is completely wrong. They may have 'borrowed' modern training methods from other fighting sports, such as boxing and Muay Thai, but that is not the same as copying those arts. Face it, Boxing and Muay Thai train the same way, only the techniques themselves are different.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject. You seem to be well-informed for the most part, Ercan, and we welcome you to our discussions. Welcome aboard!
Khun Kao
DEAR FRIENDS,
YOUR PERFORMANCES ABOUT TRYING THE COMPARISION OF TWO STYLES MT AND SAN SHOU ARE IN VAIN TO SOME EXTENT...SINCE WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS SOMETHING TO COMPARE ORANGE WITH APPLES AND TRY TO PROVE WHICH'S TASTE IS BETTER...
-SANDA OR SANSHOU IS A VERY MODERN AND HYBRID STYLE JUST MAY BE FAMOUS FOR ATMOST 10 YEARS AND ESPECIALY THE MAIN EMPHASIZE IS GIVEN BY THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT TO SUCH AN ART AFTER THE UNIFICATION OF MAIN CHINA WITH HONG KONG...
ACCORDING TO SOME EVENTS IN THE HIOSTORY ABOUT THE UNSUCCESSFUL CHINESE STYLIST CHALLENGERS WHO CHALLENGED MANY TIMES ,THE CHINESES AIM IS TO SWEEP THIS IMAGINATION "OF BEEING DEFEATEN ALWAYS BY THAIS"...THAT'S WHY THEY HAVE BEEN ALWAYS SENDING OR INVITING SOME THAI FIGHTER GROUPS IN ORDER TO TEST THEIR STYLE'S POWER AND PROVE IT TO THE WORLD...IT IS CONSIDERED AS "THEIR HONOUR"...
-IT'S SO MODERN SO THAT IT MIGHT ONLY TO BE COMPARABLE WITH NHB OR VALE TUDO AND I THINK IT'S THE BEST PLACE WHERE TO CHALLENGE AGAINST...NOT AGAINST MUAY THAI (IN THE MEANTIME, I WOULD LIKE TO CLEAR A POINT ,IN THE HISTORY MUAY THAI NEVER CHALLENGED AGAINST ANY OTHER STYLE...ALWAYS, THE CHINESE AND OTHERS HAVE CHALLENGED AGAINST (INCLUDING "WESTERN AND JAPANESE KICK BOXING WORLD,AS WELL") THAT'S ALSO INTERESTING, WHY?
-MUAY THAI IS TRADITIONAL, SINCE ALTHOUGH THERE IS A PART OF QUENSBURRY BOXING ADDED TO SOME EXTENT IN LAST PERIOD,THERE ARE MANY UNIQUE AND SPECIFIC TRADITIONAL ASPECTS COMING FROM THE HISTORY ...EVERYBODY COULD OBSERVE THIS VERY EASILY...HOWEVER, IF I WATCH A SANDA FIGHT ,I CAN UNFORTUANTELY SEE ONLY A VERY HYBRID STYLE,SINCE I KNOW %80 OF THE TECHNICS ARE NEVER ORIGINATED FROM ANY CHINESE STYLES...MODERN WRESTLING MANEVEURS (MAY BE THEY ARE TEACHED BY SOME OLYMPIC WRESTLING COACHES), LOW KICKS(FROM MT),WESTERN TYPE OF PUNCHES ETC...THAT'S ALL...
HENCE, I RECOMMEND THE SANDA PEOPLE TO CHALLENGE IN NHB OR VALE TUDO EVENTS...IF THEY WILL BE SUCCESSFUL, THEN THEY COULD HAVE SOMETHING TO ARGUE...
Ercan shows with his post that despite not having any clue what he is talking about, he is more than willing to give his totally uneducated opinion
Dude, please stop, you are just embarassing yourself