Sometimes when I have the rear naked choke fully sunk in against a stronger guy, I seem to be unable to choke him if he's pulling down on my arm. I'm wondering what I could be doing wrong.
Surely, I should be able to choke him out when the choke is fully sunk, even though my opponent is strong and has got his fingers between my arm and his chin, pulling down on my arm, and my arm is more around his chin than his neck - RIGHT?
I do it the way Michael Jen shows it on his web site, if that helps anyone. I don't have the link right now, but he shows the mechanics of the choke and how to counter several counters in a linked sequence.
I'm not actually sure I understand WHY I should squeeze my elbows together and pull them into my chest. How does that choke the person out? I can do the choke easily when there is no resistance, but sometimes I have a hard time doing it when there is resistance.
To do a blood choke like the rear naked choke, side choke and the triangle choke, there should be pressure on each side of the neck and on the back of the neck, right? I fail to see how squeezing my elbows together and pulling them into my chest accomplishes that.
The funny thing is, I was have a hard time with the rear naked choke last practise because my opponent was pulling down on my arm, but when I suddenly decided to try to do it the "INCORRECT way", i.e. by pushing behind the top of the head - it worked right away.
With hope for some answers,
jonpall.
The RNC is a form of a lateral vascular neck restraint (in law enforcement circles) or as you called it, a "blood choke". Squeezing your elbows together increases the amount of applied lateral pressue on your opponent's neck.
Pushing with your hand on the back of the opponent's head is not "incorrect" from the standpoint of affecting the choke's effectiveness, but rather that it affords your opponent the opportunity to remove that hand by pulling on it. I try to get the same effect by using my own head and chest to push THEIR head down...
Trying to move your elbows together is correct. But, When I first tried it, I was trying to move my biceps in too much. In other words, I was putting force into tha neck too far back with biceps instead of concentrating only on the elbows. When I changed, it started working.
Another major break through for me was getting in close to the guy instead of pulling myself back and away. When I am ready to apply, I fill my lungs with air and expand my chest. This takes up all the remaining space and finishes the choke for me.
I don't really focus much on squeezing the elbows together. Yes, it's a component of the RNC, and it does help, but I don't really think of it as that important. Your muscles for squeezing your elbows together are very weak. I like to think of hanging him, or trying to pop his head off.
If your right arm is around his neck, then use your left fist behind his head to block the back of his head, holding it in place. Put your chin over your left fist to support it and to stop him from removing it.
Now pull your shoulders back and thrust your chest forward. This will push his chest forward, so it's basically the same as pulling your elbows towards your chest, which you should also do. Also pull your shoulders up towards your ears.
Because you are pulling your shoulders back and up, your right arm is forced upwards in the direction of the top of your head. Now since his head is bent forward, your arm would go through his neck and decapitate him if it were a knife. There are two opposing forces, one behind his head blocking it from moving back/up, and one under his neck pulling it back/up.
Now keep your arms tight to your chest and arch back like you are doing an armbar to finish it. If you still can't finish it, turn so you're both on your right side. This will give you more room to arch, and will make it harder for him to escape. Also, use your hooks to keep his body where it is and think about pulling his head off his body.
Anyways this is just how I like to do it. It is probably considered incorrect on several points.
As far as why squeezing your elbows together works and pulling them toward your chest, it is because when you wrap your arm around their neck it is only so tight. Squeezing your elbows together is what tightens the vice. It close gap and makes the area between your arms smaller... hence cutting off the blood to the arteries.
Pulling them toward your chest is the best motiont(whilte squeezing the elbows together) to push the head forward. This closes more space and pushes their throat into the front of the choke cutting off the wind and assisting the arteries in being cut off.
I've had that problem with strong guys too as well plenty of times. What it means basically is that you don't actually have the choke sunk all the way. If he has his fingers between your arm and his throat and he's pulling down, he's obviously taking the pressure off of his neck. It's extremely frustration, but you have the position, so just keep working him over until you really do sink the choke. Maybe even let go of that attempt and give him a good old cross face and lift his head up and sink it in again. You could also try flattening him out better before you sink your choke so his hands get caught underneath him. That can make it harder to get a grip on your arm
Another important point when you do it like this is to make both of your hands into fists.
We already know that the hand behind his head should be a fist so it is harder for him to pull it out. But also the hand of the arm that's around his neck and is in your bicep should also be a fist, and here's why.
There's a kind of simple raccoon trap. Basically you drill a small hole in the top of a can and put something shiny in it. The raccoon sees the shiny object and puts in its paw and grabs it. Now, once he makes a fist, he can't pull his hand back out. So he just sits there trying to yank his hand out until you come along and either kill him or take him somewhere else and release him. All the time, the dumb bastard could have gotten away if he just let go of the shiny object and pulled his hand back out.
On the opposite side, if you want your hand to stay trapped, you should make a fist. When you trap your hand between your bicep and your forearm, you want it to stay there. Try this, get your arms in the rear naked position, pretending you are choking someone with your right arm around his neck.
Leave your right hand cupping your bicep with an open hand and try to pull it out by holding your right elbow still and moving your left elbow around.
Now, do the same thing with your right hand in a fist. It is much, much harder. When you are pulling your shoulders back and up, sometimes your left arm gets pulled up more than your right arm, so you need to make sure your arms stay in place.
Hi jonpall,
I do the "7-step Roy Harris version", which, if memory serves, is the version seen on Mike Jen's site.
I disagree with something you've written. Let me explain why:
"Sometimes when I have the RNC fully sunk in on a strong guy...."
"my opponent is strong and has his fingers in between my arm and his chin...."
If it's fully sunk, there should not be room for his hands in there. Said another way, if his hands are in there, you don't have it fully sunk. Do you understand what I mean?
So the question you have to ask yourself is "do I have it fully sunk or not?" If there is room for his little fingers, then you are not tight enough. If it IS in fact fully sunk and you can't finish, then that's a different problem. But let's at least start there. :-)
~TT
you can always cross face & re apply. or cross face switch sides. keep the hooks tight if you have his back, if hisstomaches on the ground put the pressure on his lower back, this should pop his head up
Hey,
don't forget that you have to have it sunk before you
can do all these tips.
one hand should be 100% offensive while the other 100%
defensive. Take your right arm (in this example) and
bring it around his neck. Then grab up on your
shoulder. (the higher, the better). Then the other
hand you use as like a shovel and push away the
opponents hands. Scrape off his fingers in a strong
thrusting motion. Once you have your arm under his
chin with no hand/fingers in between, then lock up the
choke.
If he does get his fingers in between and you can
scrape it away, cross face and switch arms. Once you
have it under his chin, there is NO way he will be
able to pull your arm out.
To finish the choke: making fists do help by flexing
your biceps. use your hooks to pull your choke up and
away from your opponent. bring your elbows into your
chest and flex your biceps. like you are trying to
hug yourself. the real important one is the pulling
up like you are stretching him out. It makes flexing
and bringing your elbows in a lot easier.
Something Erik Paulson passed on to me really helped make my RNC better. There are 3 steps to generating pressure:
1 - Pull your arm down (towards his belly)
2 - Pull your arm in (towards his spine)
3 - then Pull up (under his chin, towards the top of his head).
This really creates a hooking motion that makes him feel like his head is about to pop off.
jonpall,
email me. I have a suggestion that has helped me greatly.
bonton2@hotmail.com
I don't really focus on 'squeezing' the elbows together, either. Also, I don't recommend pushing the back of the head with the hand. I think if people focus on that they lose attention to rest of the RNC mechanics. Like Andrew recommended, push your chest out and bring your elbows tight to your body/side. Similar to the movement of doing an upright row when working out. Also, try this...if you are grabbing your right bicep w/ your left hand when doing the choke, focus on pulling your right elbow back as you tighten the choke. This sort of creates a small twisting motion that helps tighten in the choke, especially if they are defending w/ a hand around your arm to relieve pressure.
Sorry about ttt-ing an old thread, but what do you guys mean when you say "cross face" from the back mount?
I know what a cross face is from the side mount, but how exactly do you do it from the back mount to help you with the choke?
Sorry about ttt-ing an old thread, but what do you guys mean when you say "cross face" from the back mount?
I know what a cross face is from the side mount, but how exactly do you do it from the back mount to help you with the choke?
edit: note: by 'his', I refer to 'my opponent', not Stephan, who I had no luck with whatsoever ;)
Hate to weigh in on a technique thread after Stephan did, especially considering the schelacking he gave me when he visited our club, but...
I've had a lot of luck putting my feet on his hips and bumping by butt back a foot or so with my chest still pressed into his back. This, I've found, has the result of pushing his chin into his chest and compressing him, which not only sinks the choke deeper, but also puts a lot of pressure on him. It also keeps his weight off me which makes me more mobile and consequently makes it harder for him to pin a leg and bump his back onto the mat.
But that's me...
Joe
edit: note: by 'his', I refer to 'my opponent', not Stephan, with whom I had no luck whatsoever ;)
Joe is that a neck crank combined with the RNC?
Jonpall, if you are going to do the squeezing the elbows together method, also try this. Expand your chest out (like you are yawning and doing a stretch of the chest at the same time). Matt Thornton teaches this version on his Euro Seminar dvds and for me is has REALLY tightened up the choke. Just scissoring w/ the arms doesn't work as well without expanding your chest out (that I have found anyways).
Jonpall, if you are going to do the squeezing the elbows together method, also try this. Expand your chest out (like you are yawning and doing a stretch of the chest at the same time). Matt Thornton teaches this version on his Euro Seminar dvds and for me is has REALLY tightened up the choke. Just scissoring w/ the arms doesn't work as well without expanding your chest out (that I have found anyways).
Geroxx:
Insofar as pressure goes, it's somewhat similar to a straight neck crank (a la Coleman in the guard) in that you're putting considerable pressure on the back of the head driving his chin into his sternum, but the choke pressure will kick in way before the crank pressure. I doubt there's a ref in the world who would stop this RNC as a neck crank.
Oh, almost forgot -- with my feet on his hips, I post back with my free hand for posture and position, so that I'm sitting, not lying, when I scoot my butt back. Then the posting hand comes in from behind and locks.
Try it and let me know how you did!
joe
Great thread.
Since I am a student of the human body (I am an exercise science major) spend alot of my time studying anatomy/physiology as well as biomechanics, I like to analyze and study various movements and techniques of all types of activities including Bjj. I think doing this reveals alot of insight to alot of different techniques.
I notice something from experiment with the movement as well as the positioning of my arms of the RNC.
When I squeeze my elbows together the angle between more forearm and my bicep natural gets smaller. This naturally translate into a tighter hold on the opponents neck.
I also notice that if I take my arm and put it at a 90 degree angle in front of my chest - the angle between my forearm and chest gets smaller, once again naturally, if I point my elbow direct towards the ground.
I tend to think there is a biomechanic advantage when you squeeze your elbows together. I think that expanding your chest serves as an anchor for the pressure being applied from your forearms. It not only draws the opponent backwards into you, thus off balancing him but stablizes him so that doesn't move.
I liken this to when you brace something against a stable object so that the pressure your applying isn't lost.