Hi All,
For starters, I'm not trolling, I'm not a n00b, and I'm not trying to create controversy. I'm also NOT anti-rolling.
Here's the question: what does rolling develop? Be specific. I'd like it if we, as a group, could construct a clear and precise answer.
With all the GOOD threads going right now about drilling and training methods, I thought this might be a nice time to analyze very specifically why rolling is a part of our training regimen, and what role(s) it fulfills.
wtf? it develops teh ability to roll
lmao at this question
Sport specific cardio and muscle endurance. Ability to stay calm under extreme duress. Tuning muscle memory (that has hopefully been developed through drilling) to respond quickly and instinctively to your opponents movements. FUN and a sense of accomplishment/progress that is difficult to achieve through other means.
it helps us to recognize both dangers and opportunities. it helps us to be sensitive to what our opponent is doing and to be able to feel a movement/defense/attack in real time.
it helps us to take our techniques we drill and modify them in such a way to work in real time with resistance.
it helps us to know where and when to put pressure/release pressure on our opponent in order to get them to do move or not move in the way we want.
it helps us to predict an opponents movements but also to improvise if the opponent moves in a way we are not used to, or havent drilled.
it helps us to know when we are safe and not safe. when we can relax and wait, and when we have to try harder and push.
it also helps us to do all this and to learn how to do it most efficiently so that we get less tired and can maximize every movement.
Judo Scott - wtf? it develops teh ability to roll
lmao at this question
And why is that ability important?
Timing, sensitivity, pattern recognition, etc.
Basically, a lot of the things that you can also develop by drilling with resistance except I think rolling is better for developing fitness.
If you just show up to roll and see if you can tap people out, then you don't learn anything. However, if you show up with a specifice goal each day and try to focus on that when you are rolling then you learn a lot.
For example, if you want to work on passing the guard that day, than work to get into everyone's guard and proceed to practice passing. Even if you can mount them, let them elbow escape, reguard you, and then do it again. If you want to work on footlocks, then just attack the foot all day. I feel this helps accomplish a few things. One, it helps you develop the ability to guide the match the way YOU want it to go. You are more aware of other positions, defenses, and/or counters. For example, if I'm working on passing the guard and I get mounted on my opponent, I am going to not want them to Upa me so I end up on the bottom. I may not care that they elbow escape and reguard me, but I will make sure they do not put me on the bottom since I won't be able to work on passing the guard that day.
Obviously drilling is important to learn/remember a technique, but once you know it, I feel rolling will help you see the technique coming and you'll be able to set up the attack/defense/counter better. BJJ is an extremely dynamic sport. I feel focusing on drilling makes it too static. Using my example of working on guard passing... I feel just starting in someone's guard and trying to pass for 5 minutes isn't very realistic, because you are starting from a set (static) position. Where you'd be better off rolling and practicing to pass because you'll develop the sensitivity of how/when people reguard you and you'll be better at avoiding getting stuck in the guard in the first place.
Like someone said in the other thread about this; "Drilling teaches you to remember a move. Rolling or live sparring teaches you problem solving while fighting." I think that says it the best.
Angelo Popofski - If you just show up to roll and see if you can tap people out, then you don't learn anything. However, if you show up with a specifice goal each day and try to focus on that when you are rolling then you learn a lot.
For example, if you want to work on passing the guard that day, than work to get into everyone's guard and proceed to practice passing. Even if you can mount them, let them elbow escape, reguard you, and then do it again. If you want to work on footlocks, then just attack the foot all day. I feel this helps accomplish a few things. One, it helps you develop the ability to guide the match the way YOU want it to go. You are more aware of other positions, defenses, and/or counters. For example, if I'm working on passing the guard and I get mounted on my opponent, I am going to not want them to Upa me so I end up on the bottom. I may not care that they elbow escape and reguard me, but I will make sure they do not put me on the bottom since I won't be able to work on passing the guard that day.
Obviously drilling is important to learn/remember a technique, but once you know it, I feel rolling will help you see the technique coming and you'll be able to set up the attack/defense/counter better. BJJ is an extremely dynamic sport. I feel focusing on drilling makes it too static. Using my example of working on guard passing... I feel just starting in someone's guard and trying to pass for 5 minutes isn't very realistic, because you are starting from a set (static) position. Where you'd be better off rolling and practicing to pass because you'll develop the sensitivity of how/when people reguard you and you'll be better at avoiding getting stuck in the guard in the first place.
Like someone said in the other thread about this; "Drilling teaches you to remember a move. Rolling or live sparring teaches you problem solving while fighting." I think that says it the best.
Great post!
I like that "problem solving" bit.
There's more than one way to skin a cat: I can remember countless times where I was getting wrecked by some really good guys that were much better athletes than me, yet I managed to outwit them and crushed their will to fight. It teaches patience and that perseverance can pay off.
The above applies to a competitive training environment, of course.
i prefer position training.. ie rolling from a specific position and resetting after that particular position is defeated.
twinkletoesCT -Judo Scott - wtf? it develops teh ability to roll
lmao at this question
And why is that ability important?
because thats the sport we do... that like asking why do you play football if your trying to get better at football.
I think that rolling should be eliminated and a series of jiu jitsu based solo forms should be incorporated instead.
big fatso - Timing, sensitivity, pattern recognition, etc.
This. You can drill a technique 10,000 times but it's only when rolling that you learn to apply the right technique at the right time in an otherwise unpredictable situation.
twinkletoesCT -Judo Scott - wtf? it develops teh ability to roll
lmao at this question
And why is that ability important?
To keep things simple and linear, it familiarizes yourself with some of the conditions and situations that are likely to arise while in competition.
It teaches you a portion of the infinite number of things that can happen in a live roll. It gives you experience in situations. When you keep putting your arm in a bad spot and keep getting submitted, then eventually you learn to not put your arm there.
Lots of good points here, especially Angelo Popofski's post.
While training I try to guide the roll to a point where I can work on a few techniques I have in mind while not getting to myopic about these particular techniques - if something else is the right thing to do I'll do it instead.
However by getting to focus on a few techniques each class I use rolling as a high-pressure crucible to get high-quality reps in. To me, a quality rep during rolling is worth 20 with no resistance or context (I'm not 100% sure of that exchange rate yet, but it's something like that) where you need to remember, or better yet, feel the right thing to do under pressure.
keeping it real. I'm getting pretty good at picking up techniques in class (at least for the 5 minutes or so we drill them) but I suck at rolling. i have some classmates who struggle to see what's going on with a new technique but kick my ass every day of the week.
In the best of all possible worlds, I could do an extra half hour of drilling every class.
Also I think someone should try positional drilling with gradually increased intelligent resistance - instructions to the person practicing the move would be to initially make it work as cleanly as possible, but towards the end just give it everything (short of flailing around) to make it work; instructions to the training partner should be to resist only at the points where the other person is flubbing it (to help the person initiating the attack to catch their mistake) then to moderately resist anyway they can think of, finally to fight like hell to stop the attack.
Of course this might work out as well as agreeing to start rolling at 40% before amping it up...but that is a problem with the generally gung ho mindset of bjj, not the principle itself.
I'm sorry, but I think the question this thread is trying to answer is not a very good one.
Rolling's place in your training is subject to your goals. A person who trains BJJ for fun/hobby/relieve stress will roll playfully and freely. Someone who trains to get in shape will be active and aggressive. Someone who rolls with the goal of bringing home medals will roll various ways to attain said goal. Some people train jiu jitsu for social interaction or even just having something to do, for which rolling has relatively little or no significance at all.
To really analyze rolling, we have to start with broad questions based on your personal goals:
"What do I have to do to gain competition success in BJJ?"
"What do I have to do in class to get in good shape?"
ETC
Then we can start breaking down these questions into smaller more specific ones like:
"What is the best way to use live training, if at all, to prepare me for competition?"
Even then the answers will be different depending on the individual's skills, his academy, his athleticism, and the time at which the training takes place (right before competition, etc).
The answers can be as simple as, "Rolling is not necessary for me to accomplish me goals in BJJ" or as specific as, "In the next five minute round, the best way for me to prepare myself for competition is to concentrate on the timing aspect of my left sided single leg."
for me, it strengthen my core muscles in a way that weight-lighting could not.
I belive all out rolling is a great test of skill and you get the experience of really tapping people under pressure and stress.
Howeever I prefer "play" over all out rolling because it helps me to explore new movement patters to recognize my own tensions and solve them in my body.
These skills help me amazingly when it comes to all out rolling.
But the key to getting good is in my opinion to PLAY.
Take care
Björn