Like many here, I haven't seen the fight (yeah, I know I live in Japan, but I wasn't here over the holiday break).
So with that in mind, I can't help but wonder how so many people here have so many posts about this fight. Do most of you not watch the fights and then argue about them? =)
My thoughts:
Royce was very smart in not wearing a gi. If it had been backwards, I think people would have taken it as a fact that judokas can't compete in subs with bjjers, but that would have been crap. As such, calling Royce's smart strategy crap is silly IMO. Royce did what Yoshida should have done (out-trick Yoshida before the fight even started).
Yoshida IS heavier than Royce. We all know that weight classes do exist for a reason and Royce could make 170lbs (well probably) or at least fight guys at 185lbs if he isn't very good at cutting weight (in his late 30s and hasn't done it before). Positionally dominating a heavier guy is ALWAYS impressive.
Yoshida wasn't subbed by Royce. Where are the guys saying that Yoshida was a shitty grappler based on his fight with Silva? Royce IS a bjj black belt. Look at Pete Spratt (a very good fighter despite a couple of losses), can he avoid the submission for 20 minutes when being positionally domianted?
Yoshida is a better sport judoka than Royce is a sport bjjer. Despite talk of Yoshida being on top of judo in 1992, he was also on top of the judo world in 1999. Not too past his prime (and he did really well in the mid 90s with a lot of silvers and bronzes). Royce's performance was/is really great! (Although Nino is a better sport bjj player than Ralph Gracie, but Ralph would win a MMA fight between the two.)
Yoshida has been training MMA for 1.5 years. He IS going to get better and better, and the paydays he is getting WILL make more judokas enter MMA earlier and earlier. Expect to see better performances from Yoshida (he is still a good athlete and he has a positive attitude), and expect to see more Japanese judokas enter MMA in the long-run (with the same impact as the American wrestlers).
I hope Royce is willing to have judges in his fights in the future. He won't be positionally dominated against a guy his weight, and Pride even gave a decision against Sakuraba to close 2003. He should have got the WIN from what I read.
Oh, and if Royce fights Henderson and wears a gi, will people still say that judokas suck gi or no-gi?
Hopefully I'll watch the fight (and the Sakuraba one too) soon.
This inflamatory post should be deleted.
:)
Seriously, exellent post, and I agree with your points. It's nice to read something about this fight that does not involve bashing of one style over another. I never saw this as a style vs style match, only because neither grappler stuck only to their respective style. Punches and kicks were thrown, neither of which you can do in a grappling tourney. Saying Royce won with Jiu Jitsu is like saying Fedor beat Mino using Judo. Granted, Judo may kept him from getting subbed, just as Royces Jiu Jitsu kept him in a dominant position. However, in both cases it was the repeated punches to the face that gave them the judges, or in Royces case, the moral victory.
"Yoshida wasn't subbed by Royce. Where are the guys saying that Yoshida was a shitty grappler based on his fight with Silva? "
I know I'm still here.
I hate tell you, but seeing Royce totally dominate Yoshida on the ground only made that opinion stronger in me. He seemed totally clueless on what to do.
He didn't even come close to escaping the mount and when Royce got his back, all he could do was turtle and pray for the round to end.
"Royce IS a bjj black belt. Look at Pete Spratt (a very good fighter despite a couple of losses), can he avoid the submission for 20 minutes when being positionally domianted?"
Blah
Your comparison really means nothing. I'm sure Pete Spratt can avoid the submission for a DAY when fighting the right guy.
"Yoshida has been training MMA for 1.5 years. He IS going to get better and better, and the paydays he is getting WILL make more judokas enter MMA earlier and earlier. Expect to see better performances from Yoshida (he is still a good athlete and he has a positive attitude), and expect to see more Japanese judokas enter MMA in the long-run (with the same impact as the American wrestlers)."
In my opinion, Yoshida does not really have a future in MMA. He is too old and isn't really good in any area (groundfighting, striking and stand-up wrestling/takedowns) that is needed to succeed in MMA.
Yes, I said throws. Mostly because he hasn't shown any in his two real fights. I honestly don't think there is a single guy in Pride who he could beat.
Gracie Jiu Jitsu DOES include punches and kicks -- with punching primarily recommended from the mount and from the back.
I DID see the fight and it was rather one-sided. I thought Yoshida's corner did him a disservice by letting it go past the 6 minute mark in round 2 -- although I guess he did get a draw, so that's something.
sprawl and brawl is the way to beat royce. its just not yoshidas bag, baby
SomeRandomGuy (nice name btw), technically Judo does have punches and kicking too, and Fedor's judo gave him the top position adn the ability not to get subbed when in someone's guard (as an example of how to use them).
Aatu, did you miss the two takedowns that Yoshida did to Silva in the first round of their match (one was off of a clinch (ie. stereotypical judo throw) and the other was a double leg (morote gari)? Sakuraba wasn't able to get a single takedown in his last attempt against Silva (and Sakuraba is my favourite fighter so that was painful for me to watch ;o(.
Yoshida's age definitely works against him, but I guess we disagree as to what potential future he has in MMA. I think that he will make strides in the next 2 years before retiring from all types of competition for good.
The impact of Yoshida in MMA, though, will be measured in terms of how many other Japanese judo players (who are good money draws) come to MMA in the future.
Aatu, did you miss the two takedowns that Yoshida did to Silva in the first round of their match (one was off of a clinch (ie. stereotypical judo throw) and the other was a double leg (morote gari)?Those were sweet. Throw to dominant position. That's a good base to start with.
To those who saw the fight...IF Yoshida was not in a gi and Royce was in a gi, do you still think that Yoshida would have been positionally dominated by Royce?
I am only asking because those who are calling Yoshida a shitty grappler are implying this.
Sothy said:I hope Royce is willing to have judges in his fights in the future. He won't be positionally dominated against a guy his weight, and Pride even gave a decision against Sakuraba to close 2003. He should have got the WIN from what I read.Sothy, are you saying that Sakuraba should have got the decision nod in the Mino fight (according to what you've read) b/c from all accounts written about this fight, Nogueira won decisively it seemed... Lil confused about this statement
Pax, no sorry, what I meant is that Minotoro deserved to win and he DID win. However, the fight was competitive and Pride still didn't award Sakuraba a biased decision. They had their judges make the right deicision (mind you, I haven't watched this event).
In the previous Pride Yoshida clearly lost to Silva, however it was competitive, and Silva wasn't screwed over.
Given that the two Japanese heroes have both lost decisions that they should have lost, I feel that Royce wouldn't have been screwed over by the judges (who he can negotiage to make sure that they aren't 'cronies' of Pride, etc. Ie. get some Pancrase, Shooto, UFC, etc. guys to come in since Pride doesn't need to go through Nevada for them).
So if Royce had judges he would have got the win, and it is a shame that he doesn't get to have a win on his record.
Anyway, I am off to bed.
Night
Good post Sothy
Well, Yoshida vs Royce 2 could be a precursor to Royce vs Yoshida 3...
To be honest, props have to be given to Yoshida and Sakuraba...
Both have fought tough guys a month after having fought in Shockwave... Sakuraba with Randleman and Yoshida with Silva... to go out and fight while being the golden boys says a lot b/c a lot of fighters would have dropped out or declined to fight that kind of competition with only a months prep time...
First, Sak is no longer Pride's golden boy. Whatever he did to tick them off, I don't know, but they have treated him terrible for awhile now. They changed the rules on him with little time to adjust, then threw him in with a guy, Silva, those rules were ideal for. They've had him continually fighting much bigger people. I'm surprised he hasn't been hurt worse then he has.
Hawk
There are def. cases where Pride has put things in favour of Sak or whoever it is to be their 'Golden Boy.' The alleged last minute weight loss demands to Vitor and Rampage, the Royler incident.
But as Vitor said in a Grappling mag. article, he cant say it was Sak's demand or Pride's. Props to Vitor for that.
But its always overlooked that they changed the rules in Silva's favour too (on top of never giving Sak a rest or host of bigger guys to fight).
People will only see what they wanna see...
lol, Rampage's weight loss wasn't a last minute demand at all, he just made a fuss after he signed the contract
Vitor didn't even make the final weight that they wanted anyway.
Still, good points
Sothy, which is why i included the "alleged" in "The alleged last minute weight loss demands."
Whats funny is that many of mma fans here think all Japanese people and institutions are supposed to be 100% honourable samurais or some shit.
Japan, like every other leading powerful nation, has its share of evils too (whether they be military or economic - hey capitalism is no honourable game).
So they see some corruption or shady makings in Pride and they're shocked, 'I didnt know the samurais were like this!!!'
If you're gonna judge Japan by DSE and the Pride FC (a fucking mma organization) then be fair and judge America and all Americans by Don King.
Sothy, could you send me an email?
shimewaza@hotmail.com
good post.