Rumsfeld should resign.

Or maybe we should just hold our tongues and keep our rank.

http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=2670845&nav=0RZFU0wL

Soldier's Family Says He's Being Punished For Complaining About Equipment Shortfalls

By Eric Flack

(LOUISVILLE, December 9th, 2004) -- They're risking their lives for our country, and Wednesday angry U.S. soldiers in Iraq told Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld a lack of equipment is making their job even more dangerous. Meanwhile, the family of a local soldier who first made safety complaints in October says he's being punished for speaking out. WAVE 3 Investigator Eric Flack reports.

In a rare public airing of grievances, disgruntled soldiers complained to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld about a lack of armored vehicles and other equipment problems.

"We're digging pieces of rusted scrap metal, compromised ballistic glass that's already been shot up to put on our vehicles," Specialist Thomas Wilson told Rumsfeld in front of about 2,300 fellow soldiers. "We do not have proper armament on our vehicles to carry with us north."

"As you know, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have," Rumsfeld replied.

Harold Casey Senior knows that all to well. "They're not fighting this war with proper equipment."

His grandson, Justin Rodgers, was part of an Army Reserve unit that refused a supply mission in October.

Rodgers said the fuel he was asked to deliver was contaminated, and the vehicle they were to deliver it in didn't have proper armor.

"He tells it like it is, he won't lie," Casey said.

Rodgers now says he is paying the price for speaking out. He was transferred from his unit, has been getting extra duty and received a reduction in rank.

But in an e-mail just days ago, the solider told his grandfather it was worth it, because fuel is now being tested, and extra protection has been added to vehicles.

It was a hard-fought victory in what some U.S. soldiers say is the new battle: the battle to get proper equipment from the government that sent them into harm's way.

"They're going to have to answer to the man upstairs when it comes their time," Casey said. "And I want to see their faces when they do."

Rumsfeld told the troops the Army is sparing no expense acquiring the proper equipment and vehicles needed by the soldiers, but said manufacturers have not been able to keep up with demand.

As for Specialist Rodgers, his family does not know when he will be home.

He has already been in Iraq about a year, but the unit he's been transferred to arrived just months ago.

So Rodgers could be fighting on the front lines long after his original reserve unit returns home.

cajones, I printed something earlier that I thought better of - hence the edit on my first post - which is why I posted the story instead. Can't be to careful.

Somethings are best left unsaid in interest of self preservation...

I would like to offer a replacement candidate though - uh, Powell?

I saw a story on the company that produces the bolt on armour for the humvees and they said on camera they could easily double theyre production. Then the liberal media interview 2 or 3 other companies who said they could actually fabricate this armour too. Something has to be done about this liberal media as they are only helping the enemy with these stories. Any type of incompetence shown in the military or pentagon simply is a weakness we cannot reveal. It would be better to simply not have armour then admit incompetence.

edit trying to make this post so all can see its pro American as I wouldnt want it deleted

Can any one name the army, in all of history, which was better equipped and supplied than our Army is right now? What army deployed with a higher percentage of their Soldiers wearing body Armor? Which Army had a higher percentage of their vehicles armored?

It sounds allot like complaining that Cael Sanderson let someone score a point on him.

"Actually, upon rereading that article, it seems that Rodgers was NOT the guy who asked Rumsfeld the question about the lack of armor last week. He was one of those reservists who refused to follow orders a couple of months ago and deliver fuel to an aviation unit. I think he got what he deserved.

When I wrote my original post I thought that he was the guy who asked Rumsfeld that question last week. That guy should not be punished, and there is no indication that he is."

This is why these should be on the OG not here.

SFC Larsen,

What in the hell are you thinking??? You're ap[plying common sense to a military issue. We all know that there is no place for common sense in our job!

Consider yourself counseled!

:)

no shame

The answer to your question SFC Larsen is that there has - quite likely - been no other army than ours.

SFC Larsen as I understand, you are the NCOIC for combatives. Respectfully, I would like to offer a comparative question: Can you tell me, what part you may have played with the revision of the Army combatives manual and if you were content with the FM prior to the revised 3-25.150? If not, why the change? And are you content with the existing FM?

I guess I've always heard, since day one in the Army: "thats the way it is" or "the army has always done it that way." I've always thought that to be lazy and contrite. We can do better. And I believe we will do better with time. I refuse to subscribe to thinking otherwise.

So someone scored a point on Cael? And Cael "let" them? I doubt he did. I doubt he'll give anyone the same chance provided a similar situation.

I'm only a SPC 4. I suffer no illusion that my opinion the Hon. Donald Rumsfeld is of little merit and consequence. That is why I deleted much of my original, emotion laden post.

I refuse to think we can't be doing more because I know we can.

Trying to make things better is far different from complaining. How do you suppose that a SPC calling for the secretary of defense to resign is going to help the war effort? Do you think that if enough E-4s complain he will resign?

Here is a better plan, improve your part of the Army. If you would like to improve more than you currently have the power to do, then work hard, do PT, show people that you are motivated, intelligent and have good judgment, and maybe someday you will be put in charge of something. At that point, you will be able to do some real good. Of course you will also be the one that all of the SPCs who know everything will be criticizing.

SFC Larsen, thanks for your responce. I understand your point of view. And I feel I have done as much whenever possible; "a better plan, improve your part of the Army".

I have rummaged through scrap heaps of IED spattered vehicles in Anaconda. I made two additional gun trucks completely armored with turrets - largely by myself. Reconstituted parts from "deadlined" crew served weapons left by armorers who weren't doing their job I turned into 2 functional weapons. I'm not even SAM qualified. I did all of this in my free time in Baghdad.

Nobody seemed to notice the problem with armor until one SPC complained... And then one Secretary of Defense then chose to patronize him.

Disgruntled? Perhaps. Complaining? Certainly.

I have always placed the mission first.

I have never quit.

I have never accepted defeat.

I have never left a fallen comrade.

Can you blame me for being upset with a problem that our leadership has diminished and that costs soldiers their lives?

I will leave everyone else to last words.

Heya fellas.That was pretty intense.
Maybe they should have put Donald Rumsfeld in one of the vehicles and sent him off for a drive through the city.
I think its great to have Solidger Ground Forum.Lets people who are not on the front lines know what you lads are going through.
I'm not in the Militay,but my heart goes out to you fellas & galls.

Hia EbolaMonkey.Brother for a person to have to refit sorry rebuild his own vehicle in his own time,Fuck!!!!!!!!! Never new you boy's were doing that hard.from what i have read,things are pretty fucking hairy over there.
Anyways before i start talking to much,Take care!EVERYONE,And come home safe.

I was quite astonished to see 4/4 former Generals on foxnews, msnbc, cnn critisize Rumsfeld so scathingly on his judgements.

Rumsfeld got a bit embarrassed by the soldier's question about lack of armour but 1 thing came out it for sure: the company who produces it now has been asked to go to 100 % capacity finally.

From all I'm hearing something far more disturbing has to be asked. Why aren't the low level soldiers getting the neccesary equipment they need or theyre voice not heard up the rank of command?

Mod please remember respectfully the terrorists do not want us to have armour so answering these questions will only strengthen us.

As much as I hate to use sports analogies, it is appropriate
here because the real reason for sport is to teach just
these sort of lessons.

It is never appropriate for members of a team to criticize
the coach. It never helps. A team working together with a
mediocre plan will always beet a team that cannot work
together. Therefore those of us on the team, IE working for
the government, should follow the lead of those in charge,
not without question, but without criticism.

Opposition to a coach comes in two forms. Those who are
comited to victory and believe the current coach is not
doing the best job, we'll call these the loyal opposition.
You can see them in the stands with their team paraphanalia,
passionately routing for the team and wanting the best
possible leadership for the players.

The other form of opposition comes from those who don't think
we should have a team in the first place. They are more than
happy to jump on the band wagon any time there is a way to
hurt the team.

Those of the first type should always be careful of the
association of those of the second type.

I guess we know which type you are.

Has no regard? Your politics have blinded you.

I followed Bill Clinton when he was president, even though he loathed me, even though my friends were killed because his secratary, Les Aspin, didn't allow us to have Spectre or armour,

because the American people elected him.

Take your anti-Americanism some where else.

SFC Larsen, I have a question.

You wrote: "Therefore those of us on the team, IE working for the government, should follow the lead of those in charge, not without question, but without criticism."

Can you give an example of acceptable questioning that wouldn't be criticizing? I'm guessing that the troop who called out the SECDEF wouldn't be a good one. What would be?

Thanks,

A1C Buddhadev Chakraborty

That is certainly a good example.

Good Subordinates are candid whith their leaders. This is even more true when the stakes are life and death, as they are in the Army. However, once the decision has been made, good subordinates execute.

Comparing people to Nazis is not going to win you any converts.

You show little grasp for the law of war so let me explain a little of it to you. U.S. Soldiers are bound by law and their oath of enlistment to obey "lawful" orders. That meens orders that do not violate the law. In other words, if I was ordered to go over to a house and kill the iraqi peole inside and found they were non-combatants, I wouldn't do it and if I did the Army would prosocute me for murder.

Perhaps you would prefer to live in a country where the military does not follow the orders of a democraticly elected civilian government.

The difference between our two "trains of thought" is an understanding of the word Duty.

Soldiers swear an oath that among other things compels them to obey orders. Tens of thousands of years of experience have taught every army in the world this same lesson. I am proud that I obeyed President Clinton, no matter my feelings about him or his about me, because he represented the American people who elected him. Armies should not pick their leaders or which orders they wish to obey. When they do, it spells disaster for the things our Soldiers value even over our personal freedoms.

You, not having sworn such an oath are free to do as you please, secure in the fact that better men are willing to sacrifice on you behalf, better men defined by the very fact of their selfless sacrifice for your freedom.

Now, can we please let this board be about MMA training in the armed forces.