Josh wrote:"static uchikomi are intended to make the motions an automatic thing in your "muscle memory" and nerveous system. without tons and tons of static repitions there is no real way for something to become so embedded that you can do it without any thought of focus."
I just don't agree that static uchikomi are the best way to develop what you describe, Josh. It may work, but I think there are better ways.
"static uchikomi also develops the vcery important ability for somebody to go from a dead stop to a full-blast in an instant."
But judo is pretty much normally done moving...especially at the level at which you do it.
"moving uchikomi are intended to teach people how to move, change directions, and develop timing. could you imagine learning to do deashi-barai without moving?"
I agree.
"power uchikomi (3man) are designed to develop the mentality that is needed to throw somebody who doesnt want to be thrown. if you can lift a fella off the mat who is being held-down by a 3rd guy then you can certainly lift the fella all by himself."
I like these a bit more than regular uchikomi, for sure. I think the mental aspect is most important.
speed uchikomi are designed to build your endurance, focus and total bobdy speed.
if you want to change the grips and what not thats fine. "but the truth be told that if you cant pull the throw off to a very reasonable level with the normal grips you wont be able to do it with more complex (or even simpler) grips when people are trying to stop you."
I agree 110% with you on this, Josh.
Ben R.
Ben, are you familiar with the term "muscle memory" and what it means as far as sports are concerned?
"Ben, are you familiar with the term "muscle memory" and what it means as far as sports are concerned? "
Yes, but if I'm going to train "muscle memory" I'm going to do it for a whole movement, not a partial movement.
I want "muscle memory" for the complete seoinage, not for only part of it. The whole throw (or whatever) is my goal.
Ben Reinhardt
Links I found on muscle memory:
http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/haycock/muscle-memory.htm from a bodybuilding perspective
Even better:
http://www.advantagebasketball.com/muscle_memory.htm
This is more appropriate for Judo training.
Muscles don't have memory.
Ben Reinhardt
muscle memory is more or less the training of your body's nervous system to work in the most efficient way possible. its proven that the more your body does a particular motion (regardless of how simple or complex) that the exact parthways needed to do that motion become faster and more efficient at doing it. static uchikomi are the best way to do this in judo.
i understand that from several points of view they have downsides, but their importance cannot be denied. sure, you dont learn to finish a throw. you dont learn to hit a moving target, you dont learn to do them vs. resistance, etc.. but, no matter how much people are moving in judo, they stop sometime. they change directions, they change moving patterns, etc. the exact moments that any of these happen is the moment that a satic uchikomi comes in. not to mention the grip-fighting-- often people dont move their entire body a whole lot when gripping.
if you ever watch guys who can just explode off the grip, throw the exact moment a person stops or opens even the slightest then youll see a static uchikomi being done.
it is very, very important that the person's mentality be in the right mode for static uchikomi. if you are just doing them to do them then you are wasting your time. every time you do them you must have a specific vision in your mind, a specific instance that this throw is going to work in, etc. the body doesnt work without the mind being in the right situation.
-resnick
I think J. Resnick is very right on his view, I have seen practicing, and practiced with plenty of Japanese, and to watch them do uchi komi is a trip!
But, I think it is necessary to allways focus on the uchi komi, whatever the throw maybe, to improve....I see alot of judokas do uchi komi, without proper technique or attention to the details that make the throw work, and what I see happening is that instead of improving, they end up comitting the same errors over and over again, and of course, uchi komi like this, defeats the purpose!
Ben,
I realize that muscles don't have a "memory". Its a phrase (not TECHNICALY correct) that people use to describe the mind muscle connection via the nervous system.
Basically you "hardwire" your system to perform the movement without consciously "thinking" about it by drilling it over and over again until you can do it automatically.
Actually, Josh resnick already gave a good explanation of it. This is well known in all sports requiring coordination and speed combined.
But it really boils down to common sense. Before ANYONE can perform a new a movement quickly and accurately, they must first LEARN it.
And to learn it accurately you must first perform the movement relatively slowly and controlled to perfect your FORM first. Once you have that form established, then you can speed it up and add power and other factors to it so that you can enhance what you already know.
And once you have learned it, it is STILL beneficial to perform them in a controlled manner to "refresh" your muscle memory.
But it seems you are not convinced of their effectiveness. So be it.
"But it seems you are not convinced of their effectiveness. So be it."
I'm not convinced, and cannot be, that static uchikomi are the BEST method to build "muscle memory" in Judo.
You and Josh have said some other correct and pertinent stuff about training neuromuscular pathways, etc.
Static uchikomi, and other uchikomi,have their place in the bag of training tricks for Judo. My opinion is that they are highly overrated, though. My opinion is based on my personal experience and tons of research in general sports training done around the world by many, many people,for many, many sports.
Ben Reinhardt
Variety is the key.
we have to learn to walk before we run...
and we can all agree that static uchikomi are equal to walking in judo.
look outside your window.. do you see people literally running down the street constantly to get to where they need to go? do you run every time you are going to the guy 4 cubicles down from ya? most likely not.
while i agree that variety is key, i know that being able to walk well in judo is the biggest influence of how well you will be able to run.
-resnick
Of course you wouldn't teach moving uchikomi to a person just walikng into a dojo. You have to start with static uchikomi, that should be a given.
What I mean by "variety" is that you shouldn't "just" do static uchikomi.
As a training tool, uchikomi variants fill a particular need at any given time.
Josh wrote:"we have to learn to walk before we run... and we can all agree that static uchikomi are equal to walking in judo. "
Walking before running, yes, static uchikomi=walking in Judo, I don't agree.
look outside your window.. do you see people literally running down the street constantly to get to where they need to go? do you run every time you are going to the guy 4 cubicles down from ya? most likely not.
while i agree that variety is key, i know that being able to walk well in judo is the biggest influence of how well you will be able to run.
-resnick "
How can you walk while standing still ?
How do babies learn to walk? Do they do "walking uchikomi"? No, they stumble around and fall down, get up, maybe have some balance help from their parents. They learn to walk, and eventually run, by trying to walk,and run by trying to run, gradually getting better and better.
Doing something static to get better at something dynamic is not the best way to go.
Ben Reinhardt
gotta be able to do A before ya do B. walking/static uchikomi is A, running/moving uchikomi are B.
im nto saying you have to be able to do static uchikomi perfectly before you do moving uchikomi, im meerly saying that moving uchikomi is the natural progression of static uchikomi. moving, while it might create a better chance for off-balancing and opportunity, can make a throw much more complicated to do in the ahnds of somebody who doesnt know to move foot-A with hand-B while spinning your hips into position-C.
-resnick
"gotta be able to do A before ya do B. walking/static uchikomi is A, running/moving uchikomi are B.
im nto saying you have to be able to do static uchikomi perfectly before you do moving uchikomi, im meerly saying that moving uchikomi is the natural progression of static uchikomi. moving, while it might create a better chance for off-balancing and opportunity, can make a throw much more complicated to do in the ahnds of somebody who doesnt know to move foot-A with hand-B while spinning your hips into position-C.
-resnick"
There are other ways to get from A to B. Simplify the movement. Do static throws, then move.
I can teach a two hour judo class and have people who have never done Judo before throwing each other, usually with simple movement and transition to groundwork. Why bother with uchikomi other than to get the initial feel for a throw?
They came to Judo to learn to throw. It ain't perfect, but they are throwing.
Ben Reinhardt
"Resnick, can you tell us what Swain and the other coaches at SJSU think about static uchikomis? Thanks."
Up for a reply on this. It would be good to know.
they think they are vital. very important. if your uchikomi are bad, your throws are bad. thats all there is to it.
keith nakasone stresses our body position and entry speed on very one. he puts a lot of emphasis on being at the "top of the triangle", controlling the sleeve-grip, being on the balls of our feet, and coming in hard every time.
Swain believes that we need to do our entries fast; as fast as we can. explode into the throw every time. we can come out slowly, take a 1/2 moment between uchikomi, etc. but the uchokomi themselves must be 100% each and every time.
mr. uchida has a very simple way of looking at things.. "if you cant do it right with a non-resisting, non-moving person then how the hell do you expect to do it when they are???" learn the basics, basics can win, basics do win. being fancy only works when you have the basics down flat.
in an average night we will do 100 static uchikomi minimum as a warm-up and then 3 to 5 trips each up and back with moving uchikomi. in the moving uchikomi we do combinations, stress timing, change-of-speed, movement patterns, basic grips, etc.
we do a lot of different drills here. it all depends on what the coaches see as lacking as of late. if they think we arent crisp we will spend entire nights doing tons of drills with not too much randori. if they think our newaza has been shit in the last few tournaments then they have been known to make entire practices nothing but newaza. if our conditioning seems low we will brawl until they get tired of watching us.
but, always, no matter what else is done.. we will do uchikomi. always static first. coaches always looking to see who is needing help with what. advanced/older fellas on the team always watching the new people out of the corner of their eye, always asking one's partner how the uchikomi feel or if something seems to be missing, etc.
i guess that about sums it up.
-resnick
Wow! There's a lot of interesting and thoughtful posts and I can share this with my son!
Since he's so new to Judo, it definitely makes sense to amplify the importance of "correct" uchikomi, whether static or moving, with typical/ideal or modified grips, etc.
And if I falter with the explanations or the whys, etc., the coach is always available and quick to clarify stuff ... as is the Judo Forum!
Excellent discussion. Thanks gents!
threads like this are gold and definitely worth archiving.
Uchi Komi is absolutely necessary to improve technique.
Limiting yourself to "moving" or "static" is senseless though.
Do them both. Then throw for throw over and over and over.
Repetition is what builds that muscle memory and hopefuly
one day it just clicks.
Inspite of the apparent differences of opinions about uchikomi, I believe that the similarities are more compelling. What I've inferred from the various posts and talking to my son's coach is that the opinions about uchikomi are different AND similar in "Levels of Importance."
Please condider that my observations are very limited in that I'm using a club specific to kids who are all white belt level.
Uchikomi is a critical component for noobies because they have to develop the feel/skills for entering a throw that is being partially drilled. It is also a good warm-up.
At a "mid-level", the coach mentioned that "explosive" entry required for shiai will be even more amplified; partially lift uke, very fast entry/recovery, dealing with different grips, etc.
At a high-level, it will be more of a warm-up AND a supplement to "mid-level" drills OR as a punishment for sloppiness (coach's joke).
The coach did recommend to get a mat so that my son can actually practice complete throws, as Ben mentioned. I understand that uchikomi is more important than nagekomi at this noobie stage for a number of reasons:
a. safety: these are white belt kids and most have iffy ukemi;
b. numbers: it's just me and the coach that 7 to 12 kids can safely practice throwing and on a non spring-loaded mat. This is not much fun for throwing dummies, 2 hours/session at twice a week; and,
c. This is appropriate for Noobies. It is a critical learning component.
Speaking as a dad, I'm thrilled that my son was savvy enough to question why uchikomi is done a certain way and challenge me to make it more "realistic." If there's anything that this thread has prompted me to do, it's to buy a judo mat so he can practice his throws on me.
Again, thanks to the coaches and Judokas on this forum!