sandbagging

Any ideas of how tourny promoters can reduce sandbagging? Every tourny I have gone into I have seen obvious cases. Guys tapping every opponent in under one minute. The same guy entering at the same level three years in a row...etc I know everyone has a story to tell where they personally had to fight someone that should have been in another division. So what can be done? I had a couple of ideas...

  1. With the age of computers it should be easy to record the competitors and each year run a program that will indicate if anyone is entering the same division as last year. If a white belt he should be forced to fight blue. If a blue belt he should be forced to fight purple once he competes two years as a blue...etc.
  2. Referees/scorers could indicate on the bracket sheet if someone is obviously sandbagging so at least they will not be able to do the same next year.

  3. A national database could be set up similar to what the USJA uses. It forces competitors to show a valid USJA card indicationg the year they started and their current rank. The cost for this is only $25 a year and it includes a 10K insurance policy if injured while training. Even if it was done strictly in cyberspace it would stop a purple from competing in Califoria then moving to New York and starting as a white again....

Any other ideas?

That sucks. If you see the same guy who is sandbagging every tournament why don't you rat him out. Put his school and his instructor to shame! All the computer database stuff is nice but if you see the problem in front of you do something about it.

I also hear of a lot of blues entering the beginner (under 1 year) no-gi division and judo bb entering beginner gi-division.

My former instructor caught a judo bb sandbagging who won 1st place and had them DQ'd.

Subjective just like the ranking system.

emmengerox: I am new to the sport so I do not feel it is my place to "rat someone out" The various instructors and other fighters know whats going on. The excuse is that they dont train under an instructor that can promote them or they dident "really" train for the last year etc. I dont care if you dident train thats your problem. Injury is different. If you enter my tourny two times you will not fight as a white belt unless you were injured; period. Not that I have a tourny. Cant we get a national database from the records of the various large tournaments? It would take some coordination and cooperation but it would be good for the sport. How many people refuse to compete due to sandbagging? I am sure it is a large number. I myself have limited my competitions due to this bullshit. Why travel 10 hours to compete against a nationally ranked wrestler with a BB in Judo who is fighting as a white belt or a beginner....

  • Why travel 10 hours to compete against a nationally ranked wrestler with a BB in Judo who is fighting as a white belt or a beginner....

Damn that is my worst fear. And pay $80 US on top of that!

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Just get rid of belt divisions.

That's right, brown belt level guys will be matched with blue belt level
guys. No big deal. If you want to have loser brackets, you can do that
so that guys don't just have one match. Leave a "novice" division for
white belt level competitors. It's simple. Other sports do the same
thing. These other sports have competitions that work and they don't
have belt divisions. Sure, some guys get smoked but so what? That's
how one learns and improves. If I entered a tournament and my first
match was with Margarida, he would beat my fanny but I would
consider it a great opportunity to get on the mat with the guy.

Afterward, I would go on to the consolation bracket and be matched
with someone else who had lost.

Lastly, $80 to enter a tournament is a joke! I think anyone that pays
that much either has too much disposable income or needs to check
themselves. That is just my opinion.

"The excuse is that they dont train under an instructor that can promote..."

irish57,

Not every instance of this is a BS excuse.

Have you ever wrestled? If so, for how long?

I think wins @ the beginning level maybe shouldn't count for medals awards name in paper etc. Take the seasoned athletes incentive away for beating up on children

TheMilkman,

I've suggest the same thing as well.

This issue is more complex then a case of simply looking to eliminate sandbagging.

It should be noticed that people usually only complain when a sandbagger wins.

Most "sandbaggers" are simply people entering their first competition, or first comp in a while, and don't want to get thrown to the proverbial lions.

EmenGeeRoxx your example is wrong,I reffed that division, the competitor in question was not sandbagging (technically speaking) under the tourney rules. The instructor who had her Dq'ed was aware of the competitor's credentials and presence in the divison prior to any matches taking place, and waited until after his pupil lost to the comeptitor in the finals to complain. In my opinion that incident is a perfect example of why "ratting out" is wrong. In the heat of the moment politics and not facts may prevail, and it can never be fair to all competitors.

Ottmadus is correct, though I would add that the "team" medals are
ridiculous. It comes down to who has the most competitors (i.e. which
"team is closest to the tournament).

m.g., you are obviously a bright person ;-)

Sorry KashK, I was misinformed then. I heard it 'differently'. But I'll take your word for it.

Why was the original winner stripped of the belt? If it was known the competitor was more 'advanced' than the division they were fighting in why was the person allowed to continue competing in the beginner division?

Its bullshit and should be stopped! I have personally caught sandbaggers and have told them to move up or leave. I've made my team fight up a division if they were close to the next belt just to get the experience. My sons and daughters fought in adult division at age 14 and up and the few times that they lost made them better, more mature and more confident. To safe card your record is lacking in commitment to excell. When is the right time to move up?Now! and always take on the chqallenge that is how you personnaly grow.We keep records at the Mid west Championships and know who is were and were they should be fighting, I'm sure we may have been fooled a few times but what is a win? when the win is against a beginner! Master Bob

EmenGee, what I am saying is that the instructor who complained was aware of the competitor's credentials prior to any matches taking place(the national team judo patch gave it away), and waited to see how things would shake out. The complaint was literally lodged ten seconds after the winner's hand was raised after the final. No new info had come to the instructor's attention from the moment prior to the final, and the beginning of the complaint process.

Why the decision to strip? It was unclear to some whether the Gi divison experience categories was limited to BJJ or had the same standard as the no-gi. Under the no-gi standard it was clear that the competitor was ineligable for the beginner division. It was a grey area, where the competitor could make an honest mistake. To me the larger issue is why the instructor waited, and put the competitor through such an embarassing situation, when the instructor could have said something prior to the beginning of the division. Had the competitor's head instructor been their to argue on the competitor's behalf, the competior might not have been stripped.

Combatdo, how are you? I met you at Hooter's after the Arnold/Gracie's, my name is Josh, and my instructor is Wagnney Fabiano. While I agree that the competitor in the case I am discussing ( not my teamate or friend), could have stepped up, there wasn't any competition in the experience and weight classes above, and technically speaking the competitor may not have been sandbagging. Given the lack of competition for the competitor, could one not make the argument that those the competitor faced got an opportunity to improve themselves as you have described, by stepping up?

"...could one not make the argument that those the competitor faced got an opportunity to improve themselves as you have described, by stepping up?"

Yes.

Usually, you only hear complaints when someone loses in humiliating fashion; not living up to their expectations.

The more this topic comes up, the more it sounds like sour grapes. Suck it up & train harder.

Standards are subjective in this sport. Some people truly don't deserve the rank they wear & when they lose, they lost to a bagger. You honestly don't know what someone is capable of based off competition because you may only see the part of their game that they excel in. Doesn't necessarily mean they are bagging.

What I love the most about this sport is that there isn't a set path. You'll advance when you're ready. The more people whine, the more this will change.

Mowa
"The excuse is that they dont train under an instructor that can promote..."
irish57,

Not every instance of this is a BS excuse.

Have you ever wrestled? If so, for how long?

Very good question. Yes I wrestled 4 years in HS. That was 28 years ago so I dont feel too much like I have an unfair advantage but the people I beat in tournies might disagree. I still have an very good standup game as I was never taken down during my last three years as a wrestler. So am I sandbagging? NO because I had 11 matches last year I won 7 and lost 4 so I was fighting where I should have been. If I did not get a promotion for for or five years due to non affiliation I would enter as a purple even if I was still technically a white.....seems like the honorable thing to do

I agree.

I think I met you @ the Bud this Jan. I didn't think you were bagging @ all but some may disagree.

Congrats on your promotion! See you next year.

Kashk, EmenGeeRoxx,

If that was from Joslins last year, I was there for the whole situation. We complained immediately we saw the national judo patch on the lady in question's back. (And my team mate didn't even end up fighting her). The reason we were given was that her coach didn't want her in the advanced because she had a team mate already in that division, which in our opionion was not a legitimate reason. It was not a good situation.

"It was unclear to some whether the Gi divison experience categories was limited to BJJ"

I don't think that was unclear at all. And if I show up this year and see Nicolas Gill in the beginner or intermediate division, there's going to be some serious pouting and shuddering! ;)

Hi Rene, yep that is the one. Man, you and KashK came out of the woodwork! I was just trying to use an example and I didn't think anyone would know who or what event I was talking about LOL!

So Rene, when you complained I wonder why did they still let her compete in the beginner division just to have her stipped of the belt later? That's a cocktease.

My point was to the original post anyway about 'ratting'. If you see someone OVER and OVER again 'bagging for the last X years, I don't see why you wouldn't complain, tattle-tale, rat, bitch especially if you were directly affected!?