Sanshou advice (from email)

dear ýkfmdc,

now ý am well aware that you are a typical guy cheating every thing or a person sucked his head into the sand without international observations...
ý thought that those results were international, but they are 99% usa results, like mine in our country...

please do not proceed in cheating people due to:
-ý am sure that the said mt guys lying on the canvas are very average fighters, ,if they would be good then you would never pass this opportunity and say "sanda champ has beaten the mr - x muay thai guy" why are you not mentioning the names of those beaten mt people?..ý am sure that those mt guys may be beaten by b-classes from europe...we have basics from holland and england...and ý always remeber, how the big usa champs have always been destroyed always in mt and wka by dutch ...we did the job serious ,not watered down like in the usa due to the financial potentials...
-when you are talking about the film of your master you are also cheating...to my knowledge, a guy like mr ýkfmdc (bringing always photos and clips )would obtain a copy and benefit it to his death, if the fact is said like...(please do not tell that the said master has dyied and the wife has thrown the film to waste by mistake...)
-last ý am still looking forward to hear about those "suao jiatso" wrestlers against our poor, pornografic wrestlers...(please do not forget your camera...)

b.regards,
ercan

dear ýfmdc,

ý wouldn't like to say this, but everybody now can be well aware that you are a very good demogog..

-"how can you inform all people that chen zhaoija has knocked out montong (thai)with a throw? as far as everybody knows this chinese guy was ko'd by montong in the first round, whereas during this event the other chinese have thrown towel or ko'd ...and secondly ý did never heard and seen that an mt champ ko'd by a single throw...(but don't begin to make demogogy again ;ý told a mt -champ ,not just averaged guys...)(my dear, at that time ,the chinese were not skilled so much in throwing (may it be due to the reason that at that time there was not the famous shuao jiao existing among those chinese disciplines?..)thirdly, as far as we know this monkong wasn't at the best at that time...

-during 1974 event, as far as we know just two chinese could win the event only by points,whereas the others also being ko'd...(couldn't you understand also, chinese could only win by points with throws under mixed rules, but the others make ko...)

-about my sentence :

the above said champions..........."

couldn't you understand who are mentioned with this sentence, of course: "champs like marco ruas, dirk von dyke.." they have of course good mt experience...

just a small question:

"how old are you? due to your strange attitude ý cannot get any impression, why you always strike people with words like "moron,liar etc..." do you have a complex with you?

since this page is kickboxing section;last , but not least, ý will explain my ideas to everybody about throws and sanda again...but in not here ,in a different topic...hoping that you will not spoil it too much...

Now Ercan has simply sunk to the level of lying. Pretty sad;

"the above said champs were always saying that they had some experience in mt prior"

That is simply a lie, you should be ashamed of yourself, NONE ever said they had studied Muay Thai, when you are losing an argument I guess all you can do is lie. PATHETIC

we could only get our country champs and challenged others such as french,morocco,some thai ,but all those were of course (except a few) were b-class fighters"

ANSWER: Ercan has never produced any champions

Don't you have any pride? If you are such a great Muay thai person and your country has such a great wrestling tradition, why have you not yet sent a single fighter to win the world San Shou title? Your country doesn't even have a team. Pretty sad because your neighbor Iran has a championship team. And they think the Turks aren't really good at anything


Tan Guangcheng In September 1974 in Malaysia there were four matches between Muay Thai fighters from Thailand and local Chinese martial arts fighters. The result was a draw. The Muay Thai fighters won two matches and the Chinese fighters won two matches. Tan Guangcheng, one of the victorious Chinese fighters, was nicknamed "The Warrior Sage of Penang" because of his victory. Tan was later challenged by another Muay Thai fighter and fought him to a draw. However, this match was fought under Muay Thai rules and Tan was prohibited from throwing.

In November 1981 in another challenge match, Chen Zhaojia KO'd former Thailand stadium champion "Montong" with a throw.NONE of these fighters ever studied Muay Thai.Ercan is simply a LIAR

where are they? who can argue this? is there any champ? if you will be not ashamed you may argue that"all the champs of those events have trained sanda..."

oh, my god, ý have forgotten the famous point that "all the martial arts should have some skills from chinese arts ,of course..." sorry...

(for the god sake the above said champs were always saying that they had some experience in mt prior and benefit it in those events, as well...)

to your question "did you bring mt champs,as coach?" the reply is so simple:

"it is not so easy to create a champ in a -class or lumpini events...we could only get our country champs and challenged others such as french,morocco,some thai ,but all those were of course (except a few) were b-class fighters...since we know mt realities , we know our limits also...to create such a champ is not so easy, since in our country people couldn't afford so much time in training,if there isn't big award waiting for them...(hence,mt is not supported in turkey...)but if you ask there were many turkish champs like "yamalý,çolak,dönmez,cömert etc" ,but all are abroad livers...can we argue that those fighters are originated from turkey?..never, we know our limits whereas many others do not know..."

by the way, arguing that the "in the past of the ko'd chinese stylist were only people experts,not professionals "is a very good proof that the chinese had changed in methodology, training as ý said... they now train like professionals ...

Ercan, if you claim to know so much about Muay Thai, then you know that Thailand has never sent a single fighter to fight in MMA. All you can quote is some MMA fighters who have trained Muay Thai. There are no pure Muay Thai fighters in MMA. PERIOD

There are indeed MMA fighters who have trained San Da. You are just too ignorant to know this. Just like ALL your comments, you don't know what you are talking abut but talk anyway..

dear gunjin ex,

you should at least know there are many champ fighters in vale tudo or nhb who got mt skills prior and used some of them during their challenges (ý can spell some names as marco ruas, dirk von diyck (holland)...they were good mt fighters and switched with those skills...

so may ý ask you "is there anyone succesful from san shou or sanda environment in those said styles?..if not ,then why? with a quick observation and adding some other skills of any other forgotten traditional chinese martial art (may be with chin na technics!sorry for my spelling)sanda can also argue in short time everywhere as he has done in many sites:

"san shou beats vale tudo..."

"sanda beats nhb..."

why not?..

Lemon, are you an idiot? You are making an issue over at TYPO? WOW! I mistyped "Tung" as "Tugn"! You the manOr are you a HUGE MORON because you don't realize that in Chinese the family name GOES FIRST? Thus CHANG Tung Sheng is his name, or you can refer to him as CHANG...If you don't know this basic fact, that Chinese put the family name first, you should never post on Chinese martial arts again, it proves you know NOTHING

"Subject: RE: INFO
From: lkfmdc
Date: 26-Sep-01 | 12:55 PM

Ercan, I don't know if you are trying to be helpful or trying to be a wise ass. But San Shou and San Da people know many, many, many ways to throw and block throws and as far as COMBAT wrestling is concerned, the Chinese tradition of Shuai Jiao has produced many great fighters including Chang Tugn Sheng. Chang fought a challenge match at 67 vs a Kyokushinkai and Judo champion to show the King of Morrocco how effective what he did was. He KO'd both guys. "

then followed by

"Jeng Hin Ping is considered one of the best Shuai Jiao people ever and was good friends with CHANG (for being such a "expert" don't you realize his last name is Chang and his given name "Tung Sheng" so you cut his name in half!)"

Well looky here, the expert slipped up...well well....by his own admission to.

dear takada4life,

ý knew the proposed site from the past, if you check it (in guest book)you can find my comments in the past and after the last events, as well...
(even the promoter of the site is in favour of chinese systems and spoiling the realities some times, he even couldn't keep help himself to say some good points about the last events in favour of others...(could you get this point,too?)

regards,

"-IF THESE FIGHTERS ARE SO WELL WITH THEIR THROWS AND WRESTLING SKILLS, WHY ARE THEY NOT PARTICIPATING NHB OR VALE TUDO EVENTS? THERE IS GOOD AWARD WAITING FOR THEM...(SINCE THESE EXPERTS KNOW ALSO PUNCHING,KICKING,GRABBLING TO THE BEST,THERE ISN'T ANYTHING LEFT !) "


Why don't we see lumpinee champions in nhb? or professional fighters from thailand fight under mma rules?

Tukan Sam is SO FUNNY, because if anything "crane69" is the biggest Muay Thai jock rider in the world!!

Again, if I gave you $1, would you buy yourself a clue?

dear ýkfmdc,

as far as ý understand you are a chinese from states...please do not spoil the minds there too much, most of the states people couldn't evaluate things since mt is a new concept in this country...(although some masters like sirisute have performed mt for many years with success,due to the resisting american boxing world and nationality ,mt was unfortunately not well known in this country until recent years)however, we from here and europe could follow the subject very clear and in a neutral way and today we still do it...(we could understand this reality after the defeats of usa kick boxing teams defeats (including names like howard jackson, rodriguez)by the dutch (who were mt origin)that's why some turkish champs in mt scene could appear at least (like names "yamalý,çolak,dönmez etc. if you are not aware you can contact the concerned authorities about the history, even usa authorities...)

but, anyway ,needless to say, mt will spread there also, as seen like in "australia and canada"...we can see this from good named fighters,appearing .by the time,what do you think why even mr roufus did switch to mt and k_1?
what do you think "why?" "due to the reason of the wonderful eyes of the thai people?"

"of course, because of it's realistic sides, due to it's behaving attitude "not behaving like demogogs...", my dear!.."

Ercan, when you lie I call you a LIAR pure and simple.

First you claimed there was no San Shou until 10 years ago. We caught you in this lie. Not only was there such a term in 1927, there is a book you can still get in Asia about San Shou that dates to 1956.

Second, you lied and said that in all matches the Chinese lost. Well, I showed you again to be a liar.

Third, in your pathetic attempt to look like you know something you said that the Chinese who won must have know Muay Thai. That is crap, pure and simple

If you didn't lie and talk about things you don't know about of course I can't do this to you. So only you are to blame.

Unlike crane69, who took a picture out of a magazine and never saw the fight, I have seen the fight between Chen Zhaojia and Montong. Mr Wai Hong of the Fu Jow Pai system in NYC has it on film. I have seen with my own eyes the throw and the fact that the Thai NEVER GETS UP. His trainers come in and help him up. Poor Ercan, even you have to admit if you can't get up and your corner helps you to your feet then you have lost!

"I did never heard and seen that an mt champ ko'd by a single throw"

Well, that shows you haven't seen everything and don't know what you are talking about. Here's another example of ONE THROW ending a match and also against someone with Muay Thai training, and ANYONE can find it very easy.

Frank Shamrock KO'd Igor Zinoviev with ONE THROW in the UFC. Many people have already seen it, others can easily find it. Igor is a good fighter and actually was training with my friend Vlad Borodin in Muay Thai, this isn't disrespect to him. It just is evidence that a throw can and will KO many people

"thirdly, as far as we know this monkong wasn't at the best at that time... "

The excuse of cowards who have lost their argument, he was former Lumpinee champ

"-during 1974 event, as far as we know just two chinese could win the event only by points,"

Four fought and two won, that is a DRAW 2-2 in any book. And you are going to say a victory by points is not a victory? Then very few Muay Thai fighters have any wins. IN Thailand there are very few KO's

"ý will explain my ideas to everybody about throws and sanda again..."

You already have and already shown you opinion is WORTHLESS

dear ýkfmdc,

furthermore, do you think that we are so silly to believe what said by you about these pictures (1974, 1981's)? if it would have been as the same as your definition ,then the chinese side would have erected the statue of this victorious chen zhaoija and the others ko'd the thai's...aren't there any other pictures proving your saying? if such ko's would have been existed by the chinese, the chinese side had taken thousands of photos from different angles!..and those pictures and films would conquer all the magazines because at that times chinese martial arts were may be 10 times popular than mt overal the world...

who can believe ? on the otherside ,the events are all outside of thailand ,where the chinese culture is reigning...are the people of these chinese countries so stupid not to immortalize such an event with all facility of communication (those countries were also not communistic one ,and had also excellent communication facilities and connections even at that time...)

if those thais had been knocked as you defined,then the chinese side of course would not have passed these opportunity by not taking photos and films of the ko'd thais who are may be lying on the canvas...(or may be the photographers in those countries were so poor not to waste too much films?)

in most of san shou sites we only see the same pictures(1974, 1981,1985 etc) ,but in those the thais are very happy whereas some san shou masters are may be flying or getting the balance off (wasn't there any shuao jiao expert among them at that time?..)

Ercan, I already told you that it would be best if you just stoped posting because the more you post the bigger a fool you become.Two years ago, IKF magazine published photos of Tat Mau Wong fighting against the Thais, with one picture of him standing over his KO'd opponent, but that picture is not on the net and so can not be posted here. But here are certainly enough to show you up

San Shou fighter Richard Acosta 1st RD KO over Muay Thai opponent. Match was fought under Muay Thai rules, NO THROWS, but Richard KO'd him with kicks. Richard is undefeated in both San Shou and Muay Thai

San Shou figher Yousef Taghizadeh on way to KO'ing his Muay Thai opponent in another Muay Thai, no throws, matchEnd of match, photo speaks for itselfUS San Shou champion Marvin Perry, of Boston San Shou team, in yet another Muay Thai match, KO's his Muay Thai opponent in 59 seconds

Ercan makes a fool of himself part 93"as far as ý understand you are a chinese"Whole forum breaks out in laughter."most of the states people couldn't evaluate things since mt is a new concept in this country"Now Ercan insults about 90% of the forum"we from here and europe could follow the subject very clear"Again, Ercan, you've been supposedly training people since 1979 and don't have a SINGLE champion by your own admition. So what sort of expert are you? You are nobody, a jokeYou bring up the Roufus brothers. Well, no disrespect to Duke or Rick, I actually consider them friends, but you know that Rick was training for a while with Emannuele Noh (Manu Sitsifu) from France. France is a HUGE Muay Thai country and Noh KO'd a Thai in Lumpinee. Teh Roufus brothers respect Noh as a real Muay Thai fighterBut do you know what happened when he fought the World AMATEUR Champion in San Shou? He LOST. He was thrown many, many times. And didn't land many kicks at all. Match is on video. Contact Draka and ask for it! (more...)

"if those thais had been knocked as you defined,then the chinese side of course would not have passed these opportunity by not taking photos and films of the ko'd thais who are may be lying on the canvas..."DUDE, there IS film, I already told you that the match is on film. Mr Wai Hong of NYC has it. They used to show it in movie theatres in Hong Kong ALL THE TIME. But of course, since you haven't seen it you think it doesn't exist. You are so dense. Next you are going to make some stupid comments about the pictures above. The whole forum is starting to see what a fool you areAGAIN, who are you to be talking smack? You said you've been training people since 1979 and yet have no champions!I've only trained fighters since 1997 but my results blow you away dudeUSASKF Pro WORLD CHAMPION
K.I.C.K. Northeast Kickboxing Champion (166 lbs)
N.E.A.K.F. Kickboxing Champion (159 lbs)
USKBA Pro US San Shou Champion (cruiserweight)
Member, 2001 US national San Shou team
ISKA Lightweight San Shou Champion
ISKA Light Welterweight San Shou Champion
2001 ICMAC San Shou Champion (70 KG)
2001 US Open San Shou Champion (70 KG)
2001 US Open San Shou Champion (60 KG)
2001 NYC Golden Gloves Finalist BOXING
2001 NYC Golden Gloves Semi-Finalist BOXING
2000 USA WKF National San Shou Champion (85 KG)
2000 USA WKF National San Shou Champion (60 KG)
2 Bronze medals, United World San Shou Championships
2000 ESN San Shou Champion (85 KG)
2000 USA WKF San Shou silver medalist (65 KG)
So again, who are you to talk?

dear ýkfmdc,

there is also another alternative way to catch a low roudhouse kick...

you can just move a bit to the side (into direction of the kick/ if the kick is coming from right to left,to move just a bit to left=may be 15 cm) where you may also shinblock the kick at the end and at the same time you can catch the kick ,as well ...of course you have to do a following counter attack, may be followed by punch or a take down depending on your ability,position etc.

I got the following question via email and thought that answering it here would be to everyone's interest and benefit:"In the clinch [my opponent] is very aware that I am looking for the hip throw andhe sprawls into an excellent base with wide legs kicked far enough back to negate a single leg as well. what should I do?""rarely does he kick higher than my thigh with the roundhouse so I've only been able to catch his front kick by moving to his backside as he shoots it and than "cradling"- arm around his back and under his kickleg, and dumping him. just looking for some advice"The following is my opinion (but hey, I've trained a pile of San Shou champions so I may have good ideas LOL!) but I think a major problem with San Shou is that people fall in love with the throws and go after them so much they forget that there is a lot more to the fight than the grappling. Throw when the throw is thereKick catch when it is thereToo much wrestling and clinching wastes your time if you don't "score" and makes you very tired to boot. In international amateur competition (the world championships) they break the clinch after 3 seconds if you don't throw. A lot of people ask why, many (especially MMA people) criticize it as "unrealistic"But it is very realistic in one sense and based upon a Chinese saying. the Chinese saying is that "if in three seconds you can't throw, then HIT". To wrestle when you are not getting anywhere is pointless. To disengage when the opponent's mind is set on "grappling" and to hit them when they are not ready is SMART and PRACTICALAnother suggestion is practical for "getting points". If they sprawl back too far while you still have an upper body grip, you step back also and pull them downward. They will fall flat on their face, FULL POINTS :) ....