i saw an emerson article in bb that basically went, bring the weapon close to u and under control then wrench him off balance like youre doing a throw with the gun hit him(he showed a ridgehand to throat)then cleat hands off gun with a smash of arm- thoughts>?
weird. We showed weapons retention tactics to the Miami Dadde police but they are based on proven jiu-jitsu concepts not possibly unreliable striking manuveurs
Trying to off-balance the opponent is a good idea. However, taking your hands off the weapon to risk getting a strike is NOT a good idea. We've worked drills like this for many years and that rarely turns out well.
If the attacker is trying to get your weapon, they will try to use both hands and will even grab the barrel and have more leverage than you. Thus, it is vital to use BOTH of your hands to counterattack his leverage as much as possible until you are able to get your weapon free from his hands or maneuver to a position of greater leverage to discharge the weapon into his body.
This still frees you to use headbutts, knees, elbows, low kicks, stomps, trips, sweeps, etc. BUT, one of the very best options is to drop to far guard and use your legs to clear the distance between your bodies and wrench the weapon free or at least very easily point the "bad end" towards the opponent. This gives you the greatest leverage and control as well as bringing up-kicking into the game.
When you do this drill against someone twice your size it is one of the only effective options.
Tyler, I'm glad to see you're investigating. I feel somewhat responsible for sparking the interest, so please accuse me for popping in.
The guys have made some good points. But try the experiments for your self. Invest in an gas Airsoft gun, and a shock knife. I know it will cost you about a $800/1000 but it is worth it, if this is the level you want to train at.
IMO! I would not consider this a High % situation unless you were a patrolling solider with his weapon constantly drawn, and that is usually a rifle.
With that said, I do believe this situation does occasionally present itself and has merit, so some procedure should be recognized and discussed.
In essence what you are doing is having a deadly game of Tug - of - War. Right? And referring back to the points made by John and Andre, once again, we can't predict every possible scenario, agreed?
So, if we were watching children playing the game of TOW, what High % characteristics or commonalities would be found? Well on average, the biggest and strongest kid had the advantage. The lose of grip, and letting go causing one or both to lose balance may occur. Centrifugal force in a circular and whip type motion causing one to take a ride. And tripping and slipping or being whipped to the ground. Check out for more, but this kind of gross motor movements is where to start.
With this information gathered we now have to base a technique or concept that is in common with the criteria listed above.
IMO! an idea that should be drawn upon is the concept of Dumog., Filipino wrestling. the concept is to push or pull certain choke points found on the body. In this case, it would be the elbow and the shoulder. Now as Scott said, and I agree, keep both hands on your weapon but use the concept of choke points to off balance the enemy. If you want to look more into Dumog, I wrote an article on it, it's on my website in the article section, in Full Contact Magazine, .with Rickson Gracie on the cover.
Next, use short quick jerks to free the weapon. This is similar to when your doing BJJ and the guy has you in guard and has the straight armbar on. I'm not gonna go into detail but, most of you guys know this counter, Gift rap him up in a ball with your knee supporting him, then with quick short tugs, freeing your arm. That's what we want, that kind of tugging motion, or watching a dog try to pull a chew toy out of your hand. Those short quick jerks, some times side to side.
If you get pulled in close try HK to soften him simultaneously with the quick tug. if the situation arises bite the hand like a little kid then tug, or bite anywhere as a PIA and tug to get the weapon free.
Scott had a good suggestion if you go to the ground. Use your legs and back, the biggest and strongest muscle in the body to push off while you tug. but IMO! as a general rule of thumb,(but not set in stone) I would not purposely drop to the ground hindering a possible escape.
Always give loud verbal commands to stop, drawing as much attention to you and as possible and plead to anyone, call the cops. Never say anything that will incriminate you later in court like. I'll f*n kill you mother F*r. Always respond, stop, someone call the cops, help. educating witnesses and go directly to the PD if they have not already arrived and call your lawyer. And don't say a thing. Name, rank, and serial number.
Make sure your loads are hollow point so if accidental discharge does occur the round will not go through people, object's, cars, houses etc hitting innocent people.
IMO! This should give you a little head start in your experiments. Joe
Good post, Joe.
We use the technique of going to the ground as a kind of trump card. Obviously, we would never choose to go to the ground as a first option. But, when all else is not achieving the desired result, it's the go to technique that we can be pretty assured will. It's also the technique that our cops consider to be the safest and favorite option if they are fighting for their own weapon.
And on that note, it is something that an officer has to face on occasion. They end up in a situation with someone intent on resisting arrest and then end up having to fight to keep their own gun. In their own situation, they are not looking at escape at that moment.
I also pointed out that this is one of the most effective answers when the opponent is twice your size. In that particular instance as well, you are most likely in a fight for your life and escape is not much of an option. We have a couple of guys in our gym that literally push close to 400 pounds. When you do this drill with them, you soon realize that you would have to kill them the first chance you get if they are intent on taking your gun from you.
As Joe said. Try it.
As a matter of fact, Tyler, my school is in Richmond, Ky and has focused on realistic, practical fight training and tactical combatives since it's inception in 1994. Since you live in Ky, give a call, take a drive and come try it out for yourself with us.
www.AFSacademy.com
Tyler, I would take Scott up on that offer bro. The more guys you train with, who have the same mind set, the better.
And Scott that was no dig on you bro, about the ground option, where tyler was a civilian the option to run IMO! should be at the top of his list. that's all.
And working with those big guys is a bitch. Good technique or not.
played a lil today came up with this- one motion, drop and point at ceter of mass, fire(just in case it can),pullguard and kick away then, fin however is fit
right now i like the pulling guard tech and im playing with the jerk away and strike w both on the gun- kinda like kuzushi in greco and jits
scott
id like to eventually try out your palce i looked at the site, trained with a few ppl from there back in 04' werent serious about training(just them) but there skill was evident i dont have a car and i work like a dog at odd jobs never know when i can get a free day
do you know of glenn may- prolly back in 01 he trained there might remember an ear biting incident on a bus
LOL! Yeah, I remember Glenn. He and his buddy, Jamie, used to come a LONG time ago. I'm talking back in the 90's. Training and knowledge has went through A LOT of changes since then.
I think getting serious students is a problem anywhere as friends that I have all over the country complain about the same things, although I think this state has waaaaay more than it's share of them. I have guys that could easily be a dominant force in the sport of mma if only they took training seriously.