Thanks, I am looking forward to seeing the rules video. It is cool that the Arnold's is taking a pro-active approach to footlocks as many events still do not allow them at all. I hope to see more events following.
TTT for the Arnold's!
The only problem Relson has is seeing fighters injured.
FOOTlocks are allowed as long as they don't affect the knee... so,
heelhooks affect the knee; toeholds with the foot pointing
towards the other foot affect the ankle and are therefore legal;
toeholds with the foot pointing away from the other foot affect
the knee so they are illegal.
I give Relson credit for keeping the safety of the fighters as such
an important issue. Every tournament that I've been at where
kneelocks are allowed, someone is injured... and seriously! What
is the purpose of that? I know, he should have tapped. But, the
knee is funny like that.. it doesn't send the same pain signal to
the brain and that's where the injuries come in.
This tournament can do for BJJ what no other tournament can and
we should all support it.
Three years membership and first post!
Talk about being a lurker.
'FOOTlocks are allowed as long as they don't affect the knee...'
this is what i'm takin about, madness. this is not pure sub. wrestling! i could give a fuck about the gi bjj tourament, i'm takin bout the semi/pro no-gi divisions.(future of the sport btw, see eddie bravo for details)
'toeholds with the foot pointing towards the other foot affect the ankle and are therefore legal; toeholds with the foot pointing away from the other foot affect the knee so they are illegal'
this is gay! in catch i can to toeholds in the way you say is legal from positions you bjj guys don't even know exsist to hurt the knee as well. it also gives to much to interpretation by the 'judges' and leads to bullshit outcomes.
'I give Relson credit for keeping the safety of the fighters as such an important issue'
love this crock of shizzle. more like Relson wants his peeps to have a great advantage against guys like me who use these hold to tap bjj all the time.
the adcc has it right as far as it's allowing all holds. i've watched them all and the guys getting hurt are only the bjj guys who dont want to tap. this isn't water polo, injurys are part of the game.
if these guys would learn to counter these holds they wouldn't have to make them illegal. it's bullshit to use the "its for the fighers saftey" line to justify not letting this tournament be a adcc level event. Relson ought know better than to do this shit; i hope i'm right.
'This tournament can do for BJJ what no other tournament can and we should all support it.'
you can do whatever you want with bjj gi action, i could care less. however, the PRO side needs to have PRO rules!
so tell Relson it's very transparent to all when he outlaws legit holds for the sake of his guys. dont get me wrong i want this to the biggest show in the u.s.a, but it wont be til he remedies these things.
ttt for fighter saftey.
gracieinfo where art thou?
After the Holidays we will have some answers to all of the pressing questions! please email me at email@example.com for questions and concerns! I reviewed Ray Blackburn's post and think we should at least explore kneee bar, etc. in the No-Gi competition and higher ranks of the Gi competition....
Input is vital for growth, keep it coming!
thanks, John (I'm assuming gracieinfo = John Cooper)...
It's intimidating to argue with Relson Gracie about the legality of leg submissions in grappling tournaments, although I did try once during my most recent trip to Hawaii.
After 7 years of tournament competition (and reffing) experience, including NAGA where all submissions are legal, I have seen very few people injured because of heel hooks and knee bars. There is no denying their potential for injury. However, it is the participant's responsibility to tap when he is in danger. People become injured because they refuse to tap.
I have found that people applying dangerous submissions in grappling tournaments are very cool about them and apply the pressure gradually to give their opponent a chance to tap. I can speak from my own experience last November when I found myself caught in a heel hook. The pressure was modest, I allowed myself one chance to spin out of the move... he kept it, put it on a little tighter, as if to say "are you sure?", and at that point I knew I was caught and I tapped well before I was injured. I should have thanked him afterwards.
Arnold asked Cooper (gracieinfo) & Relson to have safe rules. So the rules were made. Each year has been really safe. I know Relson & Cooper are 100% dedicated to making the event the best they possibly can & are open to suggestions.
I would suggest e-mailing them to firstname.lastname@example.org instead of posting them on line, I would personally cc a copy of the e-mail to email@example.com and if you like e-mail them to me & I will bring them up to Relson when he is here a couple weeks from now. firstname.lastname@example.org I am not running the tournament at all (I will be fighting in 2 divisions and will help after that) but have the chance to disscuss rules with Relson and am good @ being insistant with rule changes ect. I am one of the few people in the world that can argue with Relson about rules of his tournament with out pissing him off too much.
If everyone tapped when they were suppost to it would be lots safer, but imagine if before the tournament started you had to convince 1/2 the people to agree that they are going to tap that day BEFORE they feel pain. Forget it they simply won't. Then their is a 1% that will crank the moves extra hard to be sure of the win or to look like a tuff guy. Out of 1000 competitors their will be one of these people & that's too many when not walking for a month is the result.
Relson thinks if some one can heel hook he should be allowed to face stomp, punchand kick, he thinks that evens the playing feild, but he knows Arnold wouldn't go for that.
Good points all, Phil... and people are also injured because they don't submit to armbars.
Your last point is also a good one but the same case may be made for slamming one's way out of a triangle. Since it's a grappling tournament, slamming, stomping, etc. don't belong. Grappling does not equal NHB/streetfighting.
See you soon!
I like MMA a lot so I see a place for all of these moves, but Relson has to follow Arnolds request & I think he has done that pretty well so far. I will personally be asking him about straight knee bars before & I see this change happening for the advanced divisions pretty soon, this year or next just from my nagging alone. One thing I have noticed if you ever want change from Relson be reasonable & try to sway him face to face.
I will be discussing several tournament related issues with Mr. Gracie this evening. Being the tournament director, I have the responsibilty to make changes happen and will strive to create advances to the competitions that me and Relson conduct each year. I really like the idea of allowing knee bars in the advanced ranks (Gi) and across the board in the No-Gi. The ultimate ruling on this will come from my partner. Also, Garth Spendiff, our ring captain for the event is working with Relson to refine, define and change some of the rules. Both me and Garth will finalize all the issues within the upcoming week! Thanks Phil, Ray and everyone else for your constructive input.
After reviewing what we have been advised to do by the Arnold camp and a very detailed review of the pros and cons, knee bars, heel hooks and any submission that affects the knee will not be allowed. We appreciate all of the input! The rules video will be posted on www.gracieworlds at the end of January.
Remember, our event is a subpart of a much larger event, the Schwarzenegger fitness expo, and we must work within their safety guidlines and consider the longevity of the athlete! All of you guys have a happy new year......