In Self Preservation training the fight exsists for the
fighter. In Mixed Martial Arts the fighter exsists for
the fight. In Self Preservation the fighter fights
because he has to. In MMA the fighter fights
because he wants to.
We all understand the nature of combat but the
application of that understanding is where we
differ, quite dramaticlly. Throughout the centuries
people have laid out their views regarding the
underlying principles of self defense both
theoretically and practically. Modern practitioners
have tried to demonstrate, in a practical way, the
essentials of the more recent developments in
functional tactics and training methods. This has
been beneficial to all who observe the trends and
implement the usefull additions of various schools
of thought. We must be aware of and beware of the
"halo effect" (the beleif that any change is a good
MMA, though important and positive, is not the
pinnacle of current martial ideology. It lacks the
potential for response to higher threat levels which
are by no means out of the realm of probability in
todays world. Threats regarding firearms,
weapons, multiple attackers, home invasion and
the like are not on the agenda of MMA. Striking,
clinch and ground fighting are of great value and
are areas that must be trained, understood and
developed. From there, pre fight psychology, OC
Spray, firearms, impact weapons, white light,
bladed weapons and more must become part of
the training. Spending some of your valuable
training time on each of these areas becomes a
normal part of your routine. Gaining a degree of
proficiency in these areas is what self Preservation
is all about.
MMA is geared toward glory. Self Preservation is
geared toward avoiding violence. MMA operates in
a ring. Self Preservation operates in a hallway or a
living room at 2:00am. MMA is about winning. Self
Preservation is about escaping.
In my opinion, progessive methods should include
physical tactics and psycological applications but
should ignore the spiritual altogether. A practitioner
must be prepared to endure long periods of
physical and mental concentration and focus.
Training is fun but also very serious. Tacking on
some spiritual mysticism to muddy the waters is
adding insult to training injury. Far to often there is
a mystic guru who everyone can sit around and talk
about. Circular logic can be fun but it is generally a
Self Preservation is concerned with the individual
and not the organization or group. Self
Preservation is not concerned with figure heads
and hero worship. Self Preservation strives to
Self Preservation exsists somewhere between
tight black shorts and camaflauge pants.
I'd still rather see someone do MMA instead of
traditional martial arts any day. I just question
peoples motives when they train. Do you exsist for
the fight or does the fight exsist for you.
In Self Preservation training the fight exsists for the
"MMA, though important and positive, is not the pinnacle of current martial ideology. It lacks the potential for response to higher threat levels which are by no means out of the realm of probability in todays world."
Excellent Demi! A very true statment. Also I should note that it is a statement of the obvious. Especially on this board. I know of nobody who has claimed otherwise here. But point made.
"Threats regarding firearms, weapons, multiple attackers, home invasion and the like are not on the agenda of MMA."
Again, I know of no MMA fan, or athlete who is unaware of this? And I say that as a self defense Instructor. The classic wisdom of MMA is in the ring, and is not the same as the street.
Answer = yes we know.
"Striking, clinch and ground fighting are of great value and are areas that must be trained, understood and developed."
"Circular logic can be fun but it is generally a distraction."
Yes, see the last sentence of this post.
"Self Preservation exsists somewhere between tight black shorts and camaflauge pants."
To each his own. I wore camoflauge when I served in the actual military. I prefer regular pants now. I just don't like looking like a wannabe. . . . . .unless hunting of course. But again that is my preference.
"Do you exsist for the fight or does the fight exsist for you."
That is circular logic.
I'll be in LA weekend after next at Jerry's. Hopefully you can stop by. We will be working some self defense drills and it would be good to see you.
Enjoy the day.
Combat athletics can be, or are (depending on
your outlook) SPP for combat.
"In my opinion, progessive methods should
include physical tactics and psycological
applications but should ignore the spiritual
Depends on what you mean by the "spiritual."
Peak performance "in the zone," "stuff" is a "type" of
spiritual thing (see Campbell, Maslow, ect.), and if
you're cutting that kind of thing off, you're losing a
large part of your arsenal. . . So to speak. . .
"Do you exsist for the fight or does the fight exsist
Too narrow a signpost.
I just am.
P.S. The editor in me would change this: "Self
Preservation is about escaping. " To: Self
preservation is about surviving, with escape being
an option to take (scenario dictates).
(Peak performance "in the zone," "stuff" is a "type" of spiritual thing (see Campbell, Maslow, ect.), and if you're cutting that kind of thing off, you're losing a large part of your arsenal. . . So to speak. . .)
Great point Chuck.
(P.S. The editor in me would change this: "Self Preservation is about escaping. " To: Self preservation is about surviving, with escape being an option to take 'scenario dictates'.)
Again, excellent point.
Circumstances dictate tactics, and plans change upon contact, but the root delivery systems always remain a constant.
There are some great real world self preservation instructors out there. Most all of them have extensive Law Enforcement or Military backgrounds, and most keep a low profile outside those professions. But they are out there. In fact, I know of a couple who post on this board.
"This stuff I am about to show is beyond 'street'. This is OFF ROAD baby!" -El Desnudo
I always enjoy reading your posts Demi.
I do see a delicate balance between training for athletic performance and training for self defense. Too many people IMHO feel it has to be an either-or proposition. As if you cannot train for athletic performance and get make yourself a Hard Target on the street at the same time.
I think you can do both effectively and occasionally I take my lumps from both sides for saying so.
One of the coolest things I have been involved in recently is the ISR program developed by Luis & Paul. The training is athletic and tactical at the same time. Hardly the same as strapping a gun belt on over your gi and doing judo, the program addresses specific LEO/ CO problems from a practical, athletic perspective.
If I was training purely for Self Defense, I think I would have quit long ago. As it is, I love the sport application and the athletic confidence and competence it give me. I continue to apply my tactical knowledge and experience, at least in my own head. It works for me.
"""There are some great real world self preservation
instructors out there. Most all of them have extensive
Law Enforcement or Military backgrounds, and most keep
a low profile outside those professions."""
I find the opposite to be true. I have worked with law
enforcement for years. I find that they regularly go
to the "private sector" for their training. Reason
being, law enforcement does not have the time or
resources to "train". First of all there is the police
work, bad guys to arrest, patrol, tickets to write,
multicultural sensitivity meetings to attend, politics
etc. Then there is no money. I know a guy on a gang
unit who just had his cell phone taken away because
they cannot afford it.
If you ask the questions you get some surprising
Border Patrol Annual Shotgun Qualification = 6 rounds.
How many Depts have trained with SIMUNITION - Most
have not. Not even once, let alone ongoing.
How many Depts have trained Counter Knife - Not many.
How many officers have extensive OC training - Not
How many times a year does the average police officer
shoot his weapon - Not many.
I've worked with Border Patrol, Gang Unit, Probation,
Sherrif Special operations etc. and I've heard the
same thing from everyone. The only time elite training
"does not" come from a consultant is in large (read:
lot's of money) Depts who can maintain a dedicated/
functional training staff/Dept. Even then, the amount
of time spent on training is minimal compared to the
private sector. In the private sector it's all
training, all the time. That's why the individual can
gain such a level of proficiency.
Demi (I know what Willis was talkin about) Barbito
"Combat athletics can be, or are (depending on your outlook) SPP for combat."
Brilliantly typed. That sums it up so succintly. This thread is over! ;-)
"I find the opposite to be true"
Then you obviously haven't met or trained with guy's like, Paul Howe, Ken Good, Jeff Gonzales, Kyle Lamb, Phil Singleton, Bob Gallegoes, Rich Gonzaldo, Rocky Warren, Gabe Suarez, Ron Losie, Alan Brosnan, Don Henke, Skip Stikes, Jeff Chudwin.....
and the list goes on.
There is a large group of dedicated guy's providing training within the military and law enforcement community.
Regarding the border patrol..., God bless 'em, but I wouldn't measure most by them. I say that based on having worked with quite a few guy's from that agency. Understaffed, underpaid and demoralized from a constantly changing mission.
Regarding "average officer", as Gabe says, I won't base my training on the lowest common denominator. N
First off I owe you a long overdue phone call. Thanks for the DVD I watched it yesterday. You and I know each other a long time and have each watched the other become what we are today. My statments have nothing to do with our longstanding friendship.
I find your post very troubling since from what I have seen of your own training (through your DVDs and tapes) you seem to not have reconciled many things (that you state above)for yourself let alone for the public. I will only use your newest DVD for the purpose of this disscusion (which by the way is one of the best produced DVDs I have ever seen for MAs). After watching the DVD I said to Rory "I can not belive Demi is still playing tag with weapons." Double stick, stick and knife, ,stick vs knife etc, these things have nothing to do with self pres.
I had a prison guard KO a large convict with his "sport clinch" the other day during a flairup on the cell floor. He called right after and thanked me for getting him through the day. Take that same clinch and add understanding of where/when the knife might enter the game as well as how to control/remove the blade and my people can use it to stay safe on the street, take out fouls and the knife and we can use it in MMA. Take out the strikes and my LEOs can use it to restrane and cuff a drunk football fan, focus on takedowns and my sub grapplers can use it NAGA next week, put on the gi and change the grips and my BJJ players can use it in BJJ comps.
We have gotten back multiple reports of Rangers and SF guys using there sport clinch and sport BJJ skills in CQB.
Damn good post Adam.
I have a feeling this thread is going to REALLY develope into something! Call me CARAZY!
Excellent post Adam!
"I won't base my training on the lowest common denominator." - GS
Needs to be heard. Many things will work on the LCD but so what?
Their are effective methods out their that can do some "dirty" damage via rips, pulls, and tears in H2H for example, but I'll take a good grip, time tested balance and a clenched fist or elbow over a psychologically loaded whirlwind of annoyances any day.
As for LE and security proffesionals....
Don't get me started ;)
Yes, excellent post by Adam.
"We have gotten back multiple reports of Rangers and SF guys using there sport clinch and sport BJJ skills in CQB."
Damn that sport stuff ; )
Seriously, at my seminar last weekend in Reno Nev 95% of the participants where LE. So you cannot generalize. Although it's true their training through the department sucks, it's also true that many of them understand that now, and seek out proper instruction in functional, and Alive methods. Their attendence at the event made that very clear.
Tom Oberhue and I worked the basic SBG 101 curriculum, as well as our BJJ fundamentals. And they loved it.
And everyone had a lot of fun.
It's also true that there are some very good people within the system that are working very hard to make postive changes in the DT training. And in the end they will be the ones that have the greatest impact, as they are the ones that push to have the ISR program put in place of previous outdated methods.
And getting ISR in the training is the best thing they could possibly do.
Thanks to all for responding. I highly value the
points of view.
You old softy, I love you too. You really do owe me a
"""I had a prison guard KO a large convict with his
"sport clinch" the other day during a flairup"""
Point being that the prison guard had to go to "you"
for the training. They do not have the methodology
within their own structure.
Thanks for watching the DVD. The production was truly
a major area of focus on this one. Tactically speaking
"tag with weapons" is an oversimplification of what we
did. This DVD demostrates a progression for developing
a weapons training agenda. It stops at the "sparring"
level. The video that picks up where this one leaves
off was made years ago - KILLING GIANTS. In KG we go
straight to tactical application - no sparring. Many
people I've trained will not do Tac App. So I have to
give them something that can help at whatever level
they are willing to train at.
Demi (Willis was on crack) Barbito
no double posts Demi
Excellent Post Adam!
Gotta jump in with Paul on this one.
Agencies are made up of PEOPLE. If you dig through enough red tape, you can usually find those PEOPLE. These days, more and more of these PEOPLE are realizing that it is in their best interest to put money into training.
My staff busts their asses to make sure we are putting on the absolute best training we can and we regularly go above and beyond the minimum standards.
Use of Force related litigation is too big a factor to ignore.
I was speaking with an officer here in Lexington the other day and he told me that they were discouraged from seeking training on their own. He said the department wants to insure consistency among the officers. I told him that was sad.
First time I have heard that one.
Even in our Basic Recruit Academy, DT instructors advise the students that the academy will only teach a minimum and it is their responsibility to seek out advanced training opportunities.
I would think it is the agency instructors' responsibility to bring everyone UP, not keep everyone down.
I think Paul hit the nail on the head with the LCD comment.
Demi's right, a lot of departments have poor/low training standards. Most officers are apparently OK with that or could care less. Most officers are not going to the private sector for training. They are simply not training at all, or only training in what their department mandates them to train in. That INCLUDES a lot of DT instructors.
These are the guys who the private sector trainers are gearing their training toward, and receiving kudos and testimonials from. Hardly a challenge, and even less of an endorsement.
However, there are those that do go above and beyond what they get in their departments. Yeah, they get a lot from the private sector. But they probably get more from guys like the list of names Paul gave - in other words trainers who were in the tactical community as real live officers and operators, learned what tended to work and tended not to work from their experience, and were able to synthesize training and reality to make for better training.
I have learned a lot from private sector training (both MA and self-defense/tactical). I have had "professional" DT trainers that were darn near useless.
Hands down, the best, most knowledgeable, and most effective trainers were the guys that had both the MA/private sector savvy AND professional experience in applying it.
My ultimate goal in working with law enforcement is to
change the way training is approached.
Again last night, a friend of mine is a prison guard. He told
me that qualification on one weapon ( cannot remember
which one) was ONE single round. He had never heard of
I'm not putting anyone down, I'm talking about the truth of the
matter and hoping to help implement change.