Wow, can we have ONE thread on here without trolling...? Because, if possible, THAT would be a nice change.
Thanks.
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Actually, I'm really interested in the newaza of high-level Judoka. Obviously, it is more limited & just different because of rules, but in spite of, or because of that, Judoka with strong newaza have a different perspective.
Attacking the Turtle is often the "start point" for newaza in a Judo match, whereas "Passing the guard" is often the start point for newaza in BJJ.
As a result, some Judoka are especially good things like at attacking the Turtle Position. Personally, I'd rather go to an "Attacking the Turtle" Seminar from a good Judo Player rather than an equivalent-level BJJ player.
When the judo brown belt who is a jiu jitsu blue belt starts moving fast, his groundwork definitely feels different from my other classmates. Can't quite put my finger on the differences....
egrbvr - When the judo brown belt who is a jiu jitsu blue belt starts moving fast, his groundwork definitely feels different from my other classmates. Can't quite put my finger on the differences....
Yeah, I hear you...
There are certainly many Judo Black Belts who are not impressive on the ground, but the ones who have good newaza DO move a little different. I find that difference interesting.
One thing that BJJ players can benefit from --especially "top game players" like myself --- is understanding Judo pinning better. Not so much with the goal of pinning people, but if one can't stabilize from the top, they have little chance of finishing their opponent.
Pinning is good because it breaks down how to hold a person down, which is step # 1. It is a separate skill from the skill of transitioning to a submission, which is step #2.
I think sometimes in BJJ we don't focus enough on step #1. We're always learning "submissions" but not necessarily "stabilizations". I think sometimes we gloss over that information.
Maybe I am just of this opinion because I had some "formative experiences" with Judo & wrestling people who were good pinners.
H2ODragon - Judo newaza has had a tremendous effect on my BJJ. BJJ has had a tremendous effect on my Judo newaza.
The BJJ guys are also a helluva lot nicer about beating your ass than the newaza guys are. Those Judo bastards are just sadists.
Same here, I'm a BJJ Brown and a Judo Green and naturally i am better on the ground than most of the guys i train judo with, some of who are black belts or brown belts. However i've rolled with Olympians and some old school red and white belts in judo that left me wondering what the hell i'm missing or why couldn't i do squat once they got a good grip on the ground.
I feel adding some of the judo approach to my bjj game has improved it by leaps and bounds in some areas. Naturally the whole judo outlook on groundwork is different than the bjj one, but it has more merits than detriments from a BJJ standpoint.
shen -egrbvr - When the judo brown belt who is a jiu jitsu blue belt starts moving fast, his groundwork definitely feels different from my other classmates. Can't quite put my finger on the differences....
Yeah, I hear you...
There are certainly many Judo Black Belts who are not impressive on the ground, but the ones who have good newaza DO move a little different. I find that difference interesting.
One thing that BJJ players can benefit from --especially "top game players" like myself --- is understanding Judo pinning better. Not so much with the goal of pinning people, but if one can't stabilize from the top, they have little chance of finishing their opponent.
Pinning is good because it breaks down how to hold a person down, which is step # 1. It is a separate skill from the skill of transitioning to a submission, which is step #2.
I think sometimes in BJJ we don't focus enough on step #1. We're always learning "submissions" but not necessarily "stabilizations". I think sometimes we gloss over that information.
Maybe I am just of this opinion because I had some "formative experiences" with Judo & wrestling people who were good pinners.
"One thing that BJJ players can benefit from --especially "top game players" like myself --- is understanding Judo pinning better."
I especially hear you on that. My coach wants me to stay on top more - I'm too light (and weak, ugh) to be able to let someone get on top. It's much better expending my cardio to get and stay on top, than to fight to regain it.
But as you said, stabilizing the top position isn't as easy as one might think. People are sprouting extra elbows and knees and making it hard to flatten them out, and when flat, are quite adept at recomposing guard or pushing and shrimping out.
Maybe we should think in terms of "position, pin, submission" instead of position (sort of) then "try" to throw a submission.
"...When the judo brown belt who is a jiu jitsu blue belt starts moving fast, his groundwork definitely feels different from my other classmates. Can't quite put my finger on the differences..."
As a judo nidan, I think that I can point out the difference. Next time you roll, try feeling the pressure. Judo seems to rely more on locking down the grips for a cleaner, faster transition. More pressure on a smaller area. Powerful base. The BJJ guys feel less stable, and make use of slower, more flexible transitions.
You'll hear a lot of Judo guys starting BJJ who'll say that they can move their partner into any positon they want. Frequently, though, they can't submit them. Definitely a different aim.
shen - Actually, I'm really interested in the newaza of high-level Judoka. Obviously, it is more limited & just different because of rules, but in spite of, or because of that, Judoka with strong newaza have a different perspective.
Attacking the Turtle is often the "start point" for newaza in a Judo match, whereas "Passing the guard" is often the start point for newaza in BJJ.
As a result, some Judoka are especially good things like at attacking the Turtle Position. Personally, I'd rather go to an "Attacking the Turtle" Seminar from a good Judo Player rather than an equivalent-level BJJ player.
Shen, have you seen any of the 101 Ippons DVDs? They're fantastic as not only do they show the throws, but also the newaza (the ferocity of the clock chokes have to be seen to be believed). If you're interested in seeing top level newaza I highly recommend them.
James
Sir Taps -shen - Actually, I'm really interested in the newaza of high-level Judoka. Obviously, it is more limited & just different because of rules, but in spite of, or because of that, Judoka with strong newaza have a different perspective.
Attacking the Turtle is often the "start point" for newaza in a Judo match, whereas "Passing the guard" is often the start point for newaza in BJJ.
As a result, some Judoka are especially good things like at attacking the Turtle Position. Personally, I'd rather go to an "Attacking the Turtle" Seminar from a good Judo Player rather than an equivalent-level BJJ player.
Shen, have you seen any of the 101 Ippons DVDs? They're fantastic as not only do they show the throws, but also the newaza (the ferocity of the clock chokes have to be seen to be believed). If you're interested in seeing top level newaza I highly recommend them.
James
Yes! good stuff.
SlapUsilly -H2ODragon - Judo newaza has had a tremendous effect on my BJJ. BJJ has had a tremendous effect on my Judo newaza.
The BJJ guys are also a helluva lot nicer about beating your ass than the newaza guys are. Those Judo bastards are just sadists.
Same here, I'm a BJJ Brown and a Judo Green and naturally i am better on the ground than most of the guys i train judo with, some of who are black belts or brown belts. However i've rolled with Olympians and some old school red and white belts in judo that left me wondering what the hell i'm missing or why couldn't i do squat once they got a good grip on the ground.
I feel adding some of the judo approach to my bjj game has improved it by leaps and bounds in some areas. Naturally the whole judo outlook on groundwork is different than the bjj one, but it has more merits than detriments from a BJJ standpoint.
There's something to this. One of the things Sensei tells me whenever I go for a failed sub in newaza is, "See? That's the BJJ coming out in you. You want the finish so much that you give up the pin and lose everything. Secure the pin and then slowly try to finish."
I have to say this is one of the more "open-minded" dialogs on this subject I've seen in a while-thanks Shen for stepping up to the plate from a bjj perspective.
the fact that a pin in judo can end the match is the first difference, IMHO... if i get past somebody's guard i would rather die than let him put me back in guard.
the second difference is the pressure we are taught to apply in judo. it is tremendous and meant to inflict pain and extreme discomfort in a way that stops uke from fighting further. if you have me in half guard and i need to pass, i will try to apply pressure that makes your head pop-off like a dandelion from the stem rather than take 3 minutes to do it with silky smoothness.
but i think the single most important differences are on bjj's lack of time constraints and the manner in which bjj has given importance and labels to positions in newaza that Judo does not. because of these bjj has been able to develop a teaching methodology that can place skill over physical attributes and allow people to gain a proficient level regardless of their natural athletic abilities...
whereas in Judo, if you are not a natural athlete, you are much more likely to struggle to reach a proficient level.
I am an experienced purple belt in BJJ and i trained roughly about a year in judo- recently. Anyway, most of the judo players at the school i went to= their newazza was not good. But there was one russian judo player, he had like 20 + years of training. His groundgame was very explosive and he would muscle submissions from any position.( One annoying thing in judo is you cannot standup in someone's guard. You cannot stand up against some one on the ground period.) He would gas out in a very shot period. Anyway, good judo newazza guys are oriented for their rules and go for anything and everything in the shortest period. They dont care about position before submission and dont set things up really.
please post vid