What exactly do you mean?
I have studied both so I am curious how you see this to
What exactly do you mean?
Mande Muda became a very criticized
style due to the emphasis on overly flashy moves.
(Although I do understand the late Pak Suwanda
used to teach a more practical, straight up version as well)
I am not trying to criticize the art or put it down,
but Mande Muda seemed to be pretty controversial.
In fact, silat, in general, has been heavily criticised
by many in both OJKD camps and the NHB/JKD camps
as just being a little too esoteric for most people's
taste. (although some of the basics of the silat
styles have a lot to offer)
Perhaps it wasn't introduced well or the aspects
of the arts that were taught in general public
seminars were picked at the wrong time. I know of
a few seminars where people attended and some loved it and some just didn't care for it.
Has anyone here trained in any of the following styles of Silat; Serak, Bukti Negara or Mande Muda and what did you like or didn't like?
i haven't studied any of them in depth so I can
not comment. I will say this, Mande Muda was
the beginning of the end of JKDC as a serious
training system in many people's eyes
What country were these styles created in?
Jesus you guys are polite at JKD.
I am not going to quibble as to whether Mande Muda is
esoteric or not I have my own stories about the
"exotic" nature of this art. I was more curious about
what you said about how it was the beginninng of the
end of JKDC as a serious training sys
Silat is good if you train it like an athlete and not the Dali-Lama.LOL. Attributes-Although at any time in our training several attributes will be present I beilive that when we are younger we rely more on speed and strength and as we age our timing and sensetivity take us to victory.Training realistically-To SOME degree I think that depends on the individual.For example I do believe in the phrase if you want to be a good fighter you have to fight,but at what level to you wish to compete in? Would say a Kieth Hackney beat Randy Coutoure,I dont think so but I believe that he would handle himself well against any street punk. Two different levels ,two different arts , two different missions.There was a spec-ops group over seas that used all live munitions in their drills,lots of casulities in training but they were willing to risk a higer level of risk for a higher level of competition.Training with aluminum knives is cool, but come on there is no comparison in your approach when you know the blade is real.So do we decide to go all out with real blades so that we can have the most realistic training possible-of course not!!! So we all to some degree do "dead" patterns. So hey I have a 9-5, a family ,etc.. and I have chosen the "risk factor" in my training, the point were I think my training method is sufficient not only for the nut on the street but also so I can stay well enough to take care of higher priorities at home. Oh by the way wht do you think you are most likley to die from, street attack or cancer? You see self defense is much more than a well placed juji-gatame or left hook, how about a good diet and some good defensive driving skills.
I like to employ the stop hit while driving by smashing into cars as they back out of their parking spots. Screw defensive driving!!!
I agree with both you and Mosley. I think there can be a happy medium betweent he two. It is clear in today's busy world there are not enough hours in the day to work, take care of family and train to the point of perfection 100% of the time so you have to prioritize and determine what you have time to work in to your schedule for training.
I would like to train every day at least two hours a day and it would include cardio, sparring and weight lifting but it is not in the cards.
Everyone learns differently. At one time the Kali/Silat drills that are taught now may have been very functional when taught in the context "I have to learn this to survive the armies invading the Phillipines." The mind set was "play time is over" and I have to make this work or learn how to make it work to survive. I think that is the mind set created with the groups who train with the SBG. This is the lab let's make it work.
I know people who learn better by going step by step through the Hubud and sumbrada phases first and then to isolated sparring and then all out sparring, but they really have to work at it. What is intersting is when they do spar they are able to pull off small sections of the techniques they drilled from hubud or sumbrada but it does not look like the drill at all, but it worked.
My reasoning is this: if I find it difficult to functionalize a particular combat art at the height of my attributes, what makes you think I will be able to make it work when I am 60?
Personally, I suspect the I will begin to emphasize more my awareness, bladework and firearms skills as my physical abilities begin to decline, at least for self defense. Hell, by the time I am an old broken down geezer I will probably be able to justify pulling a knife on some 20 year old punk trying to mug me! LOL
If you have ben boxing and wrestling you more than likely have been training "alive". It seems that the only people that don't regularly train alive are JKD people and karate types LOL!
I know what you are talking about as far as injuries. I currently grapple against the doctor's wishes, I am forbidden to have any head contact because of a neck injury so boxing is out. I have also done the silat/kali thing for over 10 years. Give it a try and make your own decision. You obviously have a good framework to measure it against.
Hey Ern, I see your point and I was at that stage up until about 6 years ago. The countless variations of flow drills, disarms, entries. I was an encyclopedia of the stuff-Guro couldn't teach it fast enough and I would retain almost all of it. I was all about the flash-I definately looked cool.
I have left that stage behind. I started training people to fight, not practice an art. I regularly used trapping in sparring, sometimes compound it my opp would give me the second had. Disarms too. However, the proportion of this material that I could functionalize (quite a bit) to what I taught was ridiculously small. Many of my students didn't have the hand speed or reflexes to functionalize half of what I did.
Why waste time teaching/practicing fantasy (other than for enjoyment)? A good friend of mine from Ireland said it best after a JKD/Kali seminar: "most of that stuff is just martial arts masturbation-you are never going to be able to do it with another person".
Frankly, I just don't enjoy it anymore for the sake of the art-I really find it boring. It is really the equivalent to me of doing a form or kata. I have about that much desire to do a form as do hubud, sumbrada etc. Just personal preference though and it doesn't take away from the validity of you practicing it for enjoyment. Just my personal perspective.
I agree with what you all are saying about "aliveness" in your training regardless of style. I have been boxing(western&Thai),Wreslting(folk,freestyle,greco)since I was about 12. I started BJJ in 91 and Sambo in 95. I am 31 now. I have never really thought about "aliveness" as a concept it is just what you did in those sports. From what I read on the forum the SBG guys are on the money ! However I am looking for a change of pace. Mostly due to injuries. My days of shooting in for the takedown are over, sorry Doc's orders-believe my I tried to go against his wishes and almost paid a heavy price.Needless to say heavy sparring is out of the question as well. I have seen some of the Silat in action and it looked very "street" effective and like something my body could handle in training especially when I get older. Any opinions or advice I would greatly appreciate from any of you. Thanx-a10
IMHO it is important to study the art in this case Silat first in its original form then train the same techniques against different styles of attacks ie. certain destructions or entries against boxing attacks or TKD attacks see what works and what does not work then move to the next set of styles.
Think the problem with many JKDer's is they learn only bits and pieces of everything because there is so much out there to draw from and they do not learn the whole system to absorb what was useful and then strip it down.
I really like many aspects of silat and it has enhanced my ability to blend ranges and to understand the locking and throw points of the body. I studied both BJJ and Silat and I could visualize similar locks from both styles better in the silat format than the BJJ format, but now my BJJ is better as a result.
Many arts have the same techniques it is just how they get to the position or drill it which makes it more or less effective.
For example: Round kicks in TKD or Muay thai they look similar. When I trained in TKD we kicked the air or slapped the tiny hand pad. When I got into Muay Thai we kicked the pads for 3minute rounds hard.
Which round kick would be more effective for power.
As far as training for possibility I think that is what everyone is training for. It is give someone a higher percentage to survive a confrontation because they have been exposed to more situations or ways a technique can be used (ie sparring or what ever training method)
I don't know that I ever said destructions will break the bone ever time, but what I did say was there was the possibility. The other point I was trying to make was, the commitment to the technique plays a large role in how effective it will be in real life.
I would be interested in hearing from the Law Enforcement guys out there who train hard for the real deal how they have responded on the street when they realize something bad is about to happen to them, the adrenaline is pumping and the pucker factor is on high. WOuld you make your training come to life with full commitment, knowing your life could end.
Even when training hard in the gym with the person you hate in the class the most, you will not intentionally put a fully committed killing or destruction type blow on the person no matter how bad the guy makes you mad because there are rules in place subconciously you are not going ot maim or kill the guy.
Silat won't be if very much use if you don't ever use it against a resisting sparring partner. I'm pretty new to Mande Muda; I enjoy the beauty of it and I become aware of many things I had never considered before. Once durring BJJ my current silat instructor tapped me from the bottom of my mount by using a muscle crush. Damn that hurt. Worse yet I couldn't escape it and had to give up from a dominant position. Silat only works if the individual trains it to a point that he can make it work. Some of the techniques are a little complicated for my taste, but others are absolute jewles. Saturday I executed a puter kapala (head and arm throw) after a stiff straight knee from a tripod clinch, just as I had learned it in silat. This was not in a dead environment or pattern drill, but in live sparring. I think that is where the problem is for some silat players, no sparring. If you want to be able to lift more, add resistence. If you want to be able to use silat, add resistence.
I am an LEO; I believe that Paul Sharp is also.
Law enforcement is one of the reasons my training and teaching philosophy has gone the direction it has.
Matt Thornton made a very accurate comment on another thread regarding Kali that I think would also apply to silat. Basically he said that if you sparred the Kali DB style on a regular basis (and were honest and drew from the experience) the Kali curriculum you would teach would be vastly different (and smaller) than what you probably teach now.
I believe this applies to silat too. In both Kali and silat there are lots of possibilities-far more than there are probabilities.
Bottom line, I don't have time or desire to spend years trying to functionalize or "withdraw the essence" of silat. I am firmly under the belief that there is nothing new under the sun when it comes to ma and the functional stuff is simple and direct, absent all mysticism and tradition.
I guess we are on the page because I am saying many of the simple silat techniques used with full commitment (not in the mystical sense) could be very effective in real time as long as they were trained. I was not referring the slithering looking techniques of Harimau (sp?), I'm talking about the crashing and smashing techniques of elbows, knees, head butts or what ever (since the thread was about silat I was referring to it in silat) but those same techniques could be muay thai, kali, panantukan, western boxing street fighting...
I did not say silat this move or that move was purely silat. The correlation I did try to make was there are many techniques that are the same in the majority of style, and HOW THEY TRAIN THEM MAKE THEM MORE OR LESS EFFECTIVE. Many martial arts have arrived at the same technique through different methods.
In Silat Kinjit Siko (or elbow compression throw) you can see the same technique in the Russian martial arts I don't know the name used but it is the same position and method (Anyone who has seen the Spetnaz military training footage have seen it done in full speed). The same technique can be seen in Jail House Rock (check out the pics from the interview of Mel Gibson about Lethal Weapons stunts on Stickgrappler's site) and in Capoeira (sp). Same positioning and end result different arts from different areas of the world.
As far as the thread on the Dog Brother Kali I agree there as well. Have done that style of sparring and determined for me simple blocks followed by #1, #2 or #5 strikes using either the tip of the stick or punyo blending into the clinching and then standing or ground grappling range.
I do indulge occasionally in the guilty pleasure of playing with Kambiada entries to passes and complicated amarra combinations or silat ground locking techniques but it is only to change the pace and wipe the pallet clean and play.
The majority of my training is on the basics because that is normally going to work in a stressfull situation.
Interesting question. How can this entry or others like it be trained in real time? This also leads to a simple question, will an elbow to the arm in fact break that arm?
I've been elbowed pretty hard, (to me anyway, but I am a sissy), on the arms, shoulders and head/neck without any breakage.
I asked Chai if it would be alright to just throw elbows against a guy that is covering. Hitting his covering arms and hands. Chai said that is what he would do until "he can't hold them up".
I've done just that in sparring both Vale Tudo and Kickboxing and I've had it done to me without ever having any problems with breaks. It hurts really bad the next day though. Again, I am a sissy.
Good post. This also leads to a question I have often asked myself. At what point do I decide I have spent enough time on this "art" and its time to cut my losses? Is it me or is it the technique?
Possibility vs Probability is a good standard to use to decide on what to train. If you fight, compete or are interested in self-defense you train the high prob material. If you are a stuntman, in movies, demos teams or study for cultural appreciation/diversity you can train the possible.
Limb destructions and attacks definately merit training. However, I don't ever expect them to break limbs. These types of attacks were originated with having a blade or or weapon in the hand and are obviously most functional in this context. Using the same technique sans weapons is making the best of a no weapon situation.
If a break happens great. Just don't bank on it.
Value of Enron stocks $????
Value of the look on one's face when you pull the trigger on an empty chamber and expect it to go bang rather than CLICK? Priceless.
I have been introduced to Silat throught Guro Inosanto and have been training it for several years. THe form I was taught was Maphilindo or the style created by Guro and the synthesis of they styles he learned from around 14 different teachers.
Only recently have I really started to understand the positioning and throwing aspects. I had always liked the entries and destructions which seemed really no nonsense, but it was the throws or levers I was not as comfortable with because I could see how the opponent falling into a defender's body weapon or ground in a certain position could cause serious damage at full force especially if it was without control.
Another problem was chasing a lock or throw from a certain technique or position (which was unattainable from that route). It took a while to understand you can not chase a lock or throw and you have to flow into the structure. That is something a lot of people do not have the patience for especially when they are paying for class time and their training partner gets bored and wants to do something else more dynamic.
Another aspect to look at is your attributes and would silat be good for the person. Guro Inosanto has discussed how Pak Suwanda could do amazing things no one else could pull off. It was because he had the attributes for it. Guro said Pak could grab you as tightly with his toes and feet as others could with their hands. He could do it becasue it took years of patience and training to achieve that level.
Everything takes time and I think you have to put the techinques into context:
If you enter on a punch on the outside with a vertical gunting to a Siko (elbow) to opponent's bicep or elbow the way it was truly intented the arm and or hand would be broken making a decent opening for a Kinjit Siko (Elbow compression throw), buit how are you really going to practice it in real time without running out of training partners.