Paul, I have asked the same question. I consider myself to be a person with above average attributes in all areas. I am also a quick visual and kinesthetic learner. Generally, I don't give a new art/technique very long to prove its worth....but then again I have always been accused of having "commitment issues" by women so maybe there is some correlation...
Interesting note about the elbow comment. I have seen several people on several occassions in DB style stick matches actually take full hits on the forearm, elbow and humerus without sustaining fractures (I unfortunately have received the same with only a NASTY bruise to show for it).
I think it boils down to how committed the strike is as to whether or not a break will happen.
I think in training or competition we hold back to some extent becasue we know it is not a real deal life or death situation. We want to train hard in real setting but safety is in the back of our mind.
There is an interesting book called On Killing by Lt. Col. Grossman (Retired) which describes different phases of mental conditioning and what it takes to go all the way to kill or really hurt someone. Typically the person needs to be in an environment where they see going all the way is essential. As much as we believe it is real in training I think most are compassionate enough with their training partners or opponents in competion not to seriously cripple or maim them.
As far as a bone break occuring, I saw a guy at a TKD tourny have his fib/tib lower leg broken by a snapping round kick. It was not a Muay thai full on round kick and the guy with the broken leg had his leg off the ground in the "tip tap" hop prior to it breaking so he did not put any force against the kick. I was pretty shocked to see it happen.
I work from the stand point anything is possible.
Hey Basketball, GREAT analogy about the essence of an art and wrestling instruction.
I do disagree with your initial response on this thread "Mande Muda was the beginning of the end of JKDC as a serious training system in many people's eyes" in one sense. JKDC was not meant to be a training "system". A concept is just that a concept. Not a method. If people chose to integrate Mande Muda into their JKD that is their problem, or benefit if they could make it work.
I unfortunately trained many hours in MM without any benefit. It took me a while to revert away from the "its all good" PC mindset and be able to be critical again of the martial arts. Every art has good and BAD things about it. Being able to recognize the bad with the good is just as important as not being closed minded to different arts/methods to begin with.
Don't get me wrong, Pa Herman was a GREAT person and would clean my clock. I just couldn't make his material work for me real time. Maybe it was because I was only getting the essence-I don't know. Time and money that would have better been spent elsewhere if I had trusted my instincts.
Niiice post VPM
I wish I could have trained with Pa Herman more. Great funny guy (even though he made my legs and hips hurt).
last year, I stopped by RAW to learn a little bit about takedowns to prepare for a BJJ tourney. What I saw blew my mind away. I couldn't believe that simple things like lowering your head, dropping elevation, and timing/distance make such a huge difference.
Now, what if Rico opted to just show the essence? (ie water it down) Would it work? Nope.
I silat is going to be instructed it should be instructed the same way as the other arts, all of it or none of it. If there are worries about dangers, then make it an advanced class. (Like some BJJ places do with vale tudo classes)
Watering doesn't do anyone any good
Hey Guys,
My two cents on this. I am an instructor under Guro Inosanto (Kali/Silat) and I have studied Silat as part of the JKD curriculum. The Silat you see in the US is not what you will see if you were outside the US. Yep. it's the old cultural rift coming to play. Why do I say this? Well, I had a chance to train with some Silat guys in Europe and I can tell you, the Silat there is kick ass. Basically it looks like Muay Thai/Street Fihting with lot's of dirty tricks and hard core neck cranks, breaks and throws. The idea is to KILL your opponent, not knock them out or submit them. My instructor there had a few students in prison becuase they aced people in a street fight using it. What we get here is basically the "essence" in which we study the "levers" involved with such throws and techniques. Yes, American Silat has been "softened" to fit our culture and legal system. And to give only the essence to us since we already have a pugilistic base to work from. Even Pa Herman Sewanda told me that "we don't train like this in Indonesia". He knew that I had seen the real deal and told me this. My personal opinion is that Silat is a "higher" art. It can work, but only after you understand it and have trained in the more basic punch/kick/grapple arts. I see it as icing on the cake. Even the common throws taught (sapu, bisets and peuters) are not that well understood by US practicioners who have not trained elsewhere. Example: I have been shown a way in which a simple biset dollum would be "unsurvivable" if done correctly. I know cause I almost got my neck broken when it was demonstrated on me. I know this sounds like the old "my art id too deadly" deal, but in this case there is some truth to it. Face it, all REAL fighting is deadly if taken to that level. When made into a sport it changes...but the sport is how we can train withoiut killing one another. If you are a shooter, it's like IPSC vs. simunition training vs. a real gun fight. You have to choose how you train. So....I keep training in Muay Thai and Boxing and keep training in BJJ and Catch and keep training in Kali/Silat all via the JKD approach to find out what works for me. One more thing.....A lot of the lack of credibility is from HOW we train. When I train silat we use focus mits, tip guards, Thai Pads and all the other gear so we can make it IMPACT oriented....then we throw, if it's there...other wise we keep on hitting. Try and train it like that cause the entry or "making the way" as Pendekar de Thaurs calls it is half the battle....Also, consider the source....Guro Dan Inosanto for all intents and purposes brought a lot of Silat to the public via the Academy. He wants his students to get the "essence" of an art, not to neccessarily become an expert in that art. Silat is extremely valid in a close quarter confrontation. Also it is an art that takes a solid base and understanding of human physiology to make work. Who on the planet other than Guro has this....not many. Again it is an example of a higher art. For the same reason we still train trapping, we train Silat. It has it's place in REAL combat (read ambush/counter ambush applications...not sport)....keep training in it guys cause when we are in our 60's and can't kick, punch or shoot like we used too.....Kali and Silat will come to our rescue....but only if we keep training in the basics today. Guro once told me.."you start as a kick/puncher become a grappler and then age makes you a leverae fighter". I for one think he's right. That is why I believe he helped bring Silat to us and the public.....just my thoughts.
VPM
Indonesia, some of the techniques and philosophies are similar to FMA
some prefer ferrari,
some prefer dumptruck.
Thanks VPM for what you had to offer. Any comments anyone on Serak or Bukti Negara? I think the elbow to the arm thing will work in its proper context. I woul never count on the break, but a sharp elbow say to the mid bicep will aid in getting a lock or better conrtol.
my post did not post probably. it should've read:
"some prefer ferrari,
some prefer dumptruck.
they are both vehicles and do the same thing.
make sure u have the KEYS to make the vehicles work."
i still have to learn how to drive my dumptruck b4 i go 4 the ferrari :-)
JKDFIGHTER,
;-)
Silat styles are not just exclusively from Indonesia. A lot of great Silat styles also originated from Malaysia. Actually, silat was used by the indigenous malay people as the art of war for the ancient malay empire. But the silat styles that have spread to foreign countries are mostly from Indonesia.
During my 3 months stay in Malaysia, I have met and briefly trained with a few Silat gurus living in kampungs (villages).
They show me the rudimentaries of
seni pukulan (striking art)
seni kuncian (grappling art)
seni pisauan (knife art) using the kris dagger.
The silat that I have been exposed to have been nothing short of brutal. I learnt how to absorb blows to the body using special breathing methods, soft techniques (buah bunga), footwork (langkah-an) etc. Some of the important advices they gave me include
don't memorize techniques and that
adaptability is one of the most important qualities
etc.
IMHO, very compatible with JKDC.
They also demonstrated tenaga dalam (inner energy work)...
Exactly SPC.
TTT for SPC.
I used to teach silat in malaysia (not any more- switched to bjj)and what SPC says definitely rings true.
SPC,
I got started out in Cekak Malaysia (pronounced CHUH KUK) back in 1986. I have been training constantly since then. However, for personal reasons, I decided to broaden my horizons outside what I have learnt. I Became instructor circa 1994/95. I stopped about 2 years later. I have known bjj and started practicing bjj since 1994 thru video tapes and friends and the occasional blue/purple that I have met along the way. I also train wrestling with the Malaysia squad although I am not in the team. I also train judo as well.
When it comes to silat I have been exposed to quite a number of Indonesian as well as Malaysian styles. Among them are Gayung, Sendeng, Buah Pukul Mersing and several others. When I say exposed, I mean I interacted and sometimes I have learnt from them although cursorily but it is enough to understand their philosophy of training.
I also do a lot of readings on the Martial Arts both on local silat as well as foreign arts.
To answer your question why I switched to BJJ, well really, I haven't switched to BJJ. That is to say when people say switch it means they literally dump what they have known and forsake it. I merely do not get involved in silat on the level that I used to do.
Silat on its own, ie their techniques are note worthy. Their strategies are also note worthy and each style has something to offer.
Let me talk from my experience in just one particular style. That style is Cekak.
I really have no qualms about their empty hand techniques in response to parang attacks as well as empty hand attacks. Put in proper context, I believe these techniques will work wonders. The only problem is the way one trains.
To illustrate what I mean, lets take aikido. I believe you guys have some exposure to they way aikido trains. In many ways it is similar to how silat or many traditional arts train.
My question is, what is the motivation for someone to hold on to an aikidoka's wrist as u perform your technique? Why do people flip over unbelieveably when people perform these techniques?
Answer:
The MOTIVATION AND CIRCUMSTANCES for holding and not letting go off the hand is not clearly explained and trained.
The reason for holding onto a person's hand is because we have a knife in our hands. That is why they grip tightly and that is why the aikidoka can perform those drills of theirs. This motivation is not properly spelt out. And students assume that what they learn in class will be useful REGARDLESS of circumstances.
The reason people flip over incredibly is because the opponent does it on purpose in order to spin out of a wrist lock.
..........>
Conversely I am not trained in aikido and I asked an aikidoka to do a wrist lock on me and I said that I would not spar with him just to see how the technique works. Result, I did not flip over. I merely landed to my side.
Now students, learn these techniques and expect to see themselves perform these spectacular throws in life threatening situations. Well cicumstances do not reflect their practice.
I believe all the techniques taught in aikido are useful. They have their place. But to assume that the circumstance you practice in the dojo reflect ALL circumstances is decieving.
For example, how can the wrist lock throws of aikido but used in MMA the way it is practiced in the dojo today. What strategies should you use? AND, do we really want to IMPOSE our style in a given situation?
That is to say, I MUST THROW AND ACHIEVE AN AIKIDO THROW IN THE RING BECAUSE I AM AIKIDOKA.
Surely you guys know the answer to that. To be good in mma u train for mma. Ofcourse MMA training has its pay off in a one-on-one street fight where the there are no weapons and no one else to jump on you too.
The only difference in MMA training and traditional training is that they don't make wild claims and they train for the situation that they will most likely face. While many traditional and EVEN some bjj enthusiast see their style as the be all and the end all.
So aikido or any similar way of training style such as silat isn't really at fault. What is, is its unrealistic expectation in what you hope to achieve. That is why I began to learn bjj/judo/wrestling. In order to understand a different range as well as sparring.
NOW, the mentality that bjj or any sparring type entity such as MUAY THAI, BOXING, WRESTLING, or even MMA are the BE ALL AND END ALL to any situations is also a grave mistake in my opinion.
Let me illustrate this point by a particular real life threatening episode that I was unfortunate enough to encounter.
On April 17, 2001 at around 2.00 pm, I walked up a staircase into a CYBER CAFE shop in Bangsar in Kuala Lumpur. As I walked into the shop I didn't notice anything unusual at first. As I proceed to walk in, 2 guys who were standing by the door looking nonchalant walked up to me from behind. One stood on my left and the other on my right.
........>
I looked to my left and to my disbelief, he was holding a golok ( a 22 inch type machete) in his left hand. He looked 5" 6' and scrawny. As I recovered from my disbelief, my heart said "I can take on this guy...I can punch him in the jaw and wrestle the golok out of his hand".
That was when I turned my head to notice the next guy who was covering my right. This guy looked to stand around 5" 5' and fair in complexion as opposed to his partner on my left. Concealed in his right hand was a shiny glittering sharp golok that added fear to the already menacing situation.
My mind was racing. My heart beat faster. I knew that this is could be my last day. All chances of fighting back suddenly dimmed as I realised that the odds for survival dropped dramatically. The door I came in was the only escape. I looked around for help and I noticed one woman sobbing being consoled by her husband. The other customers were all slouched in front of their PC's and looking grimm. I felt light. I felt as if i was not there but I was witnessing everything on TV. I was in shock!
My assailants proceeded to question me. They repeatedly asked my ethnicity. I said that I am Malay. They were not convinced. They rummaged through my wallet to see my identity card. Sure enough they found that I am Malay.
At this point, I was puzzled. Why were they asking my ethnicity? Then I remembered....for the past week, hostilities broke out in the suburbs of Kelana Jaya not too far away from here between Malays and Indians over some matter. The Police Special Riot Force had been called in to monitor the suburbs.
I thought, perhaps my assailants were looking for revenge. Perhaps the ethnic clashes had finally spilled over to Bangsar. But why me. I dont look Indian.
Fortunately, my assailants were Malays too. I decided to play to this end in order to gain sympathy. Had they been Chinese or Indian, I would have anounced that I was Chinese or Indian and that I was born overseas and couldn't speak the Cantonese (Chinese) or Tamil (Indian) language. Such was the gravity of the situation that I had to find some common or sympathetic ground between me and them.
All the while, one of the assailants was guarding me at all times. I noticed also that there was also another assailant was beginning to round up all about 7 to 10 cyber cafe customers into rooms.
I was the only one that was left in the main lobby. I felt like a sacrificial lamb. Why were they singling me out? Don't they believe that I am malay?
Then, the assailant that was rummaging my pockets for my wallet came back after he had left to bring the others into the rooms presumably to be locked up. He was still holding my wallet and keys.
They then proceeded to interogate me. They asked whether I am a policeman. I said I wasn't. They lifted my trousers to check for guns and began to search my body. Perhaps they mistake me for a policeman because I had short GI style haircut. All policemen here have that short hair cut look.
They asked this to me several times.
........>
By this time I was made to sit down. The man that was guarding me sounded paranoid and maniacal. His mate came by and calmed him down It seems that this other assailant seemed to take pity on me.
All the while as I answered their questions and taunts I was calm and held my head high. I looked them in their eyes as I answered them in a calm way.
Only God knows how shaken I felt. I felt like an egg balancing on the tip of a buffalo horn. That is the Malay saying for the feeling you get when you stand close to the ledge of a high cliff.
I was resigned to the fact that I might meet my Maker and that this was all a Divine test. And since that was so....I shall bow to no man. If I am to die, I shall not beg for my life from these criminals! I shall fight.
It was at this moment that God answered my prayers. One of the assailants took pity on me. He returned my wallet and keys. He said " sit still... we will not hurt you". I did not believe in his crew but I decided to play to his pity.
I began to fake a sudden asthma attack (I don't have asthma thank God). I acted as if I was dizzy. The acting worked. The other assailant that was guarding me left me in the hands of this guy. I began to fake illness.
To my surprise, they both left me alone in the room. And that was the chance I took. Counting up to 5, I sensed that my guards were busy doing something in the connecting rooms. They had precious little time. It was at this time that I realised that this was no revenge situation but a store robbery.
I stooped low as I made my way to the door. At that moment, as ill luck would have it, a third and larger robber (perhaps 6 feet tall and well built)came out of one of the rooms and saw me. He ran towards me and managed to block my exit. He was holding a handphone presumably he was talking to the getaway car. He had no parang or golok (Thank God).
I pushed him hard as I attempted to RAM him down the staircase.
There was no time to trade blows or even bring him down to the ground! My only concern was escape before the men with the goloks come out of the room and hack me down! Time seemed to slow down.
........>
My opponent stepped to the left as he sensed that he was about to fall down the staircase with me. By now, it was a tug of war in those precious few seconds! My back was now facing the exit as he tried to pull me in by the shirt and shouting for his mates! My heart was racing FAST!
I slapped his grip off my shirt. And I leapt into the air over some flights of steps. I landed on my right foot which caused it to fold unnaturally and became very sore afterwards. Perhaps adrenaline kicked in , but I managed to race to my car outside and immediately go to the police station.
The whole situation lasted about 10 to 15 minutes. But it felt like BLOODY 3 hours!
Later, I found out that it was a robbery conducted by at least 5 people on that particular cyber cafe.
Many days afterwards, I felt quite paranoid and pretty insecure.
NONE of my training be in in SILAT, BJJ, WRESTLING AND JUDO prepared me for this. To the contrary, it was only my belief in a higher FORCE and my training with my friend Henzi and that decided the outcome.
My friend Henzi stands at 5 feet while I stand around 5' 9" or 5'10". I weigh close to 186 pounds while he ways a lot less. Henzi is really into training for self defence. He advocates carrying weapons and scenario training. It was my training to actually RUN away from a hostile situation that saved my life.
Many people say I'll fight first but if I can't I'll just run. Good! But how many actually train to RUN away from a parang weilding man? How many actually train to calm down an angry man with a gun in his hand? How many actually train to fake seizure and actually then RUN? How many actually train to catch a person off balance with a question before striking the opponent and then actually RUN?
Very few. IT IS NO DIFFERENT THAN TRAINING AGAINST A RESISTING OPPONENT.
Many talk about it but dont train every day scenarios. This training includes being accosted as you walk to your car. Being accosted as you walk out off your car. What weapons you can bring with you and how to get it out quickly and so forth.
We realistic martialartists pride ourselves in how REAL our way or how superior we are to traditional martial artists. In reality, we can be as closed minded as a frog under a coconut shell (malay proverb) and we sometimes stand in false confidence.
I cant thank God enough for saving me!
Great story dany_my! Thanks
Silat is certianly very different in the far east. I think the mistake made in the West is that the silat players learn silat technique but often go on to spar and do pad work kickbocxer style. In one session of bag work you probably throw more punches than you would in a week of Silat classes. As a result when it comes to self defence the person will rely on what he has done the most..whcih in this case will be boxing work. Then the silat is quickly forgotten.
The silat in the west (please pardon the generalsiation) perhaps neglects the internal work of silat.