Some old Submission Pictures

Hey Jason, great to see you post on this forum. I'll give you a call one day this week about coming down there, sounds great.

Cool pics!

A simple question - why is the toe hold in the 1st pic called "Japanse Toe Hold"? Anyone?


It seems that most any hold that attacked the ankle joint or tendon of the ankle was refered to as a "Japanese Toe Hold". I would assume that there was a Jiu-Jitsu connection.

judo connection. jujitsu died. almost every single jujitsu school in japan merged with Kano by 1884.
judo had many leg locks.

"Anybody notice anything about the grip and the angle? "

The mighty 10 finger guilloine!!

Correct on the TFG, and you are the first to get it, congratulations!

In CACC instructionals from the turn of the century credit is given to "Jiu-Jitsu" for certain moves, never seen Judo credited.

Good stuff again, as always Mark.

Surprised to see you here Jay. Are you training with Guy now?

Jeff Malott

"In CACC instructionals from the turn of the century credit is given to "Jiu-Jitsu" for certain moves, never seen Judo credited."Judo does come from Jiu Jitsu, so that is not incorrect.

Can't take credit. another guy saw the same thing and posted it before I did.

Jason Coomer posted this: "I do like the 10 finger neck crank londos is using."

Well....you might still be able to take some credit as I had given J(Jason) the "heads-up" over the phone that the pic was on here. I thought he might have an interest as he has the largest arsenal of submissions that I've ever seen.

"judo connection. jujitsu died. almost every single jujitsu school in japan merged with Kano by 1884. judo had many leg locks. "

"In CACC instructionals from the turn of the century credit is given to "Jiu-Jitsu" for certain moves, never seen Judo credited. "

Hmm, I'd think it's probably Judokas that taught CACC wrestlers leg locks. But they may have explained them as Jiu-jitsu techniques rather than Judo, since leg locks were banned in Judo - sort of like why Judoka Maeda Mitsuyo called his art Jiu-jitsu?


No.

And I'll disagree with the first quoted statement while I'm here, jj certainly didn't die in 1884.

Jason

Jason,

Thanks for your answer, but can you elaborate?

Sure. First, leglocks in judo weren't really "banned" in competition until much later. They were still taught (you can find texts into the 1950's that still show them), and I wouldn't be surprised if you can find one in kata today still.

From the 1880's until 1900 or so, the Japanese wrestlers that hit the US were sumo wrestlers, not JJ or judokas, so I don't think the theory of judokas teaching leglocks to catch wrestlers theory would really fly (I'm certain we can come up with a manual before 1900 that shows leg moves, H. F. Leonard probably has them and he is maybe 1890/1895, IIRC).

Maeda called what he did JJ because JJ was the commonly used term. Kano himself was still calling it JJ until 1913. Judo wasn't much used until a good way into the 20th century even by the Judo powers-that-be. For example, look at Yamanaka, he publishes a book in 1920 with the title "Jiu-Jutsu or Jiu-Do: Selection from Kodokwan Method," because the names are still interchangable at that point, although that is about when I would say judo starting taking over more (Maeda hit Brazil slightly before this time). So while some folks claim that Maeda called it JJ because Kano was pissed at him wrestling, the evidence just isn't there. Besdes, him being a pro wrestler, he was going to go with the name that folks recognize, which was JJ.

And as far as JJ dying when judo was formed, well, there are still JJ schools today that are doing fine. More to the point though, it's not like everything collapsed in 1884, even if you want to say that judo became prevalent, I think you have to give it some time first. I don't think you need to even say that, though, because alot of the people that brought JJ initially to the western world were not Kodokan guys, although obviously they outnumber other folks 10 to 1 these days.

Jason

1 Like

Great post Jason.

I would also point out that many CACC leg-locks are designed to pin not to submit. I would think that these certainly came from a source other than either judo or jiu-jitsu.

Sorry guys but I'll have stand by my original statement that jujitsu ended. However my date was wrong. by 1905 almost every jujitsu school (save aikijustsu -aikido)

You are certainly correct in saying that "jujutsu" was still the common name being used, even when the training was judo. "jujutsu, judo, whatever those crafty little japs do.."

"there are still JJ schools today that are doing fine."
modern jujutsu schools are a facade and in truth mixtures of karate, kempo, judo, hapkido and any other mixtures that one instructor may have. like jujutsu before judo they are just as erratic in focus.

I disagree.

Jason,

Would you like to ellaborate on your opinion or cite resources that support your beliefs?

Thanks.

Nope.

Just kidding. I've got a long weekend scheduled and I'm pressed for time tonight, so it may have to wait a bit, though. Hopefully Hissho or someone into the Japanese ma scene will chime in and save me the hassle of pulling the sites for a few ryu I think are legit. My biggest problem, though, is that you didn't use any qualifiers with your statements regarding JJ. If you had said Most schools blow or alot of schools died out instead of "all JJ taught today sucks b/c none survived and teach anything authentic," (forgive the paraphase) I probably would not have bothered to object. It may be difficult to find solid traditional schools, but I think they are out there.I think the early international influence of (non-Kodokan) JJ instructors was probably brushed off too easily also.Jason

Thanks for the post, Jason.

"Maeda called what he did JJ because JJ was the commonly used term (...)Besdes, him being a pro wrestler, he was going to go with the name that folks recognize, which was JJ. "

I like your explanation - realistic and makes sense. Katsukuma Higashi, JJ/judoka, wrote a book in 1905 named "Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu" so the names were definitely still exchangeable.

Your points in the previous post are:
1- Both Judo and JJ had many leg locks.
2- Sumo wrestlers precedes JJ/jukakas in US pro wrestling.
3- There were many leg holds before JJ/Judo came to US.

Soooo...., are you saying that Catch leg holds have little influence from either JJ or judo?
Then I have to go back to my original question - Why is it called a "Japanese Toe Hold"??

H.F.Leonard had a connection with Higashi, so I still wonder what Leonard's sources were.


Your insight much appreciated.

Thanks.