Sparring vs. Drilling?

Underground BJJ Ground
21

Jorx,

Light live drilling is good but really doesn't help your coordination not as much as so-called dead drilling and coordination is the main issue. Any so-called live drilling is good only AFTER you have decent coordination or control of your own body. If you don't have good coordination then light live drilling doesn't seem to help much. If you suck as a basketball player, that is, you don't move very well, have bad coordination and bad body control then I don't know how playing a few "live" games is going to help you (your coordination that is) if anything it is going all the more expose how bad of a basketball player you are (who will be the very last person picked for any team, assuming you are picked at all).

Like I said alot of people lack of skill and progress can be directly linked to poor coordination. When you have poor coordination you are actually fighting against yourself every time you try to do a move or simply move like your suppose to for you sport/activity. You muscles automatically tense up and cause you movement to be stiff and almost robotic. Everything you do is off. Your movements aren't smooth, you telegraph everything, your reaction is hella slow, you get in your own way, your timing sucks. You're just no good.

Good coordination has a direct and positive effect on every other important quality in Bjj. Timing, reaction, movement, transition, posture, combinations and even learning new technique can all be directly link to coordination.

When I was growing up "uncoordinated" was the word used for scrubs. A scrub is a person who tries their best to be good at a sport or activity but simply falls way short. A scrub is a person with too left feet. They can't seem to do anything right even the most basic of moves.

I am telling if you can easily do the simpliest of moves and movements in Bjj, how are you going to do the more complex and complicated? It is sad that many people in the martial arts can't recognize the common problem for success and progress as well as the common solution in the martial arts.

22

Jorx,

I see what you are saying. Let me see if I can explain what each one is good for:

"light live drilling when the basic is learned" - this helps to build timing and also helps to reinforce the movement, just like the "dead" drills will.

What does "dead" drilling have that this doesn't? A couple of things:

1) There is no risk of the partner changing from "light" drilling to balls-to-the-wall drilling.

2) Because the timing element has been removed, the movement can be examined, piece-by-piece, beyond the scope of the "basic" technique. TINY movements can be identified and explored because there is no reason to hurry along.

For example, when you do the triangle choke, what is the position of your ankle (of the leg that's over the neck). Is it flexed? Extended? Rotated? Does the bottom of your foot face downwards, down and to the left, left, up and to the left, upwards, up and to the right, right, down and to the right, or directly towards the wall? Does this make a difference when you execute the triangle? (YES, yes it does!)

3) Sometimes in live practice I can "cheat" a technique in a way that I cannot cheat when practicing statically. Here is an example:

-In the standard elbow-knee escape from the Mount, I will need to move my hips once to clear my first leg, a second time to clear my other leg, and a third time if I want to finish in the closed guard (so the hips move right-left-right or left-right-left).

When I am drilling live, I can "cheat" the escape because I have a moving partner. I can skip the first hip movement by shifting his weight away from that side and freeing my knee without moving my hips.

YES this is more efficient, and YES this is sometimes how the escape is done when rolling live, BUT it is not helping me to develop hip movement. If I were to practice the technique statically, I would be forced to move my hips all three times (which means more repetitions and better quality skill development).

I absolutely agree that alive drilling is a big, necessary piece of the puzzle. However, I think that reps are undervalued and underused because people find them boring, and they don't want to use a "boring" training method to improve (even if it will deliver results!).

~Chris

23

I agree with TT.

Coordination encompasses all that TT mentioned in his post. Coordination is essentially about body control. And body control deals with everything from the slightest movement to largest movement, from simple movements to complex movements, from individual limb positioning and placement to total body movement. Coordination includes rhythm, timing, angles, sequence.

Like TT stated there are so many things that so-called "live" drilling (whether light or intense) allows you to get a way with. There are specifc body movement which take precision that one is SUPPOSE to do but alot of times don't do because they allow themselves to "cheat". Alot of people have poor hip movement because they simply don't "work" on it when they "live" drill. They'll do everything BUT move their hips. So-called "live" drilling isn't designed or meant to develop coordination, generally so called "live" drilling assumes you already have some degree of proficient and coordination. So like in TT's example, in a so-called "live" drill it is assumed that you ALREADY know how to move your hips and the "live" drill is a means of practicing that movement against resistance. BUT if you don't know how to move your hips how is "live" drilling going to develop that especially when you can so often cheat get away with not doing that movement?

If you can't do a simple and basic move well before you get into live drilling then how is live drilling going to specific help you do the move well?

You have to know how to play basketball pretty well (that is do the basic moves like dribbling, shooting, rebounding, passing etc) before you can be effective in a "live" game even if it is a "light" game. If you don't have any basktbal skills (which obviously require coordination) than all your going to do in a "live" game is do the best you can with your "bad" form and ultimately hurt yourself (and others) instead of helping yourself.

I think the same logical applies to Bjj because Bjj like basketball is a physical activity therefore a "physical skill". Bjj like basketball is something you DO with your body and if you can't adequately control your own body then you simply won't be that effective in Bjj (or any physical activity) no matter how many "live" things you do.

24

dead drills of a movement build up the muscle memory and allow you to learn where to put your hand, foot etc. Without having to worry about what the other person is doing. Once you can do this, you can move onto trying to apply it in a live situation.

Often, if you can't get a move to work in a live situation, the best thing to do is take the move appart and drill it with a compliant partner, then go back to drilling it in a live situation once you have worked out where you were going wrong.

25

I'm going to say that I agree with mg and twinkletoes on just about everything they said.

I will add this however:  I think training dynamically and statically should also go in CYCLES.  Here's an example:

Let's take the standard elbow-knee escape from side control.  When you first learn it, you drill it statically until you can remember all of the component mechanics of the move, following which you start drilling it with light reistance, and eventually you add it into your live sparring matches.  THIS is where I think the static reps get undervalued: After you have gotten so you can pull this move off a large percentage of the time and are familiar with and repeatedly successful in using it, I think it is important to go back and do more STATIC REPS.  Why?  Because now that you have that base of success and familiarity with it, your awareness has been raised...... and NOW you can start to look at some of those finer details that twinkletoes is talking about.  If you try to break down a technique into those tiny details too early, you'll spend forever in "analysis mode" without ever gaining any functional skill.  (The failure of TMAs lies here).  But once you have a functional skill, then you can peel another layer off the proverbial onion and gain more insight and understanding into the finer points, analyzing the possible counters, figuring out the counter-counters, etc.

What is the difference between a blue belt excuting a technique and a black belt executing the same technique?  It's not JUST coordination or timing or awareness, it's the cumulative effect of repeatedly looking at the same technique with more and more detail and ever-increasing intimate knowledge of the "basics" that make the black belt not just effective, but also more efficient. 

Those that do just enough static reps to learn the mechanics and then go on to live drilling and sparring without ever revisiting the mechanics statically seem to still develop a lot of skill in using the same techniques, but they don't have the ability to break it down into the same level of detail when explaining it, and also have to rely on a higher degree of athleticism and conditioning to compensate for the lack of effeciency that comes from not knowing/understanding all of those fine details.

Hope that made sense,

Adam

26

Adam, good post.

Jason K

27

I'll agree with that.

28

Twinkletoes:

Your point nr 1. - it's up to a coach to regulate that.

Point 2. - also what the coach is for AND "evolution" on moves. When drilling a triangle a person WILL find the successful right way. And that is way more valuable and on contrary FASTER than having someone tell him all the fine details from the start.

Point 3. - who cares if you can escape mount:)? And if in live drilling I get someone better/heavier on me that forces me to move my hips more.

I am sorry... I must admit that I am very strongly and probably rather "blindly" on the "aliveness" side. Why? Mostly because I see the success of it in my gym every time I coach. And I find that "uncoordinated people" learn BETTER in alive drilling than doing dead reps because the transfer is not very good. Meaning that they can get all the details right in doing a rep but when resistance starts it's all out of the window. (and please don't tell that they need MORE REPS). They are far better off doing with progressive resistance and a coach at their side (from time to time) telling them what to do.

Indrek had an article up... 5+1 stages of resistance... I agree with him on that.

I do not say reps are not needed. I think that dead reps are needed as long as you generally "get" the mechanics of the move. After that you need resistance. Meaning that unless it's a really complicated move I do not see anyone at bluebelt level and above needing more than 10 reps of any move before adding resistance. Maybe 10 reps again some other day (the same move) and so on time to time to refine the fine points. But that's it.

The same goes for bagwork. It is for solo training and technique refinement (from time to time). But I do not see why one would use a heavy bag when there is equal possibility of having someone properly moving around, feeding you with the pads, hitting back etc.

29

Jorx,

I think we agree on a lot. Here are my responses to your responses. ;)

1) OK. That sounds fine.

2) I disagree on a couple of points. Here's the only one that really matterst: "When drilling a person WILL find the successful right way."

That is not my experience. If we were all perfectly self-aware, that would be possible, but we are not. I watch some of my students struggle during live drills because they cannot figure out what they are doing wrong. In fact, I think we all have days like this. None of us are doing "perfect jiu-jitsu" when we get on the mats. There is always an aspect that can be improved (be it mechanical, timing-based, or tactical).

3) "Who cares if you can escape mount?" This is a really important point. I'm going to disagree on some MAJOR, MAJOR grounds.

"Winning", in whatever sense the drill allows (getting the tap, escaping a position, etc) is not necessarily the sign of gaining skill. "The win" is a shortsighted approach and a hindrance in the long run.

Why? Because it says that "being fast, athletic, explosive, or bigger than your partner is the same as being more skilled".

--

Now, in regards to your overall comments and perspective, I think we agree about much more than we disagree on. I think alive drilling is important, and I do a LOT of it at my gym, even with brand new students on day 1. I agree that it brings certain results. I also do a lot of "dead" drilling with my students, and I see that that brings certain positive results too.

Here is the place where you and I disagree. It's a minor point, but Indrek and I have danced circles around it in the past: you wrote that dead reps are good until "you generally "get" the mechanics of the move".

This is where my experience has given me a very different viewpoint. Here's an example:

I recently participated on a seminar covering the kimura from guard. We spent FOUR HOURS on the kimura from guard, and the first half was just on "finer points of the mechanics".

This was the DAY of my purple belt exam, and I still learned a TON of information about tiny, microscopic changes to the kimura that make a HUGE difference in its execution. I learned a LOT about why it sometimes works for me and why it sometimes doesn't. It was all veeeeeeeery small details that I had not seen or discovered before.

This seminar raised my awareness regarding certain dimentions of the kimura. I use the kimura all the time, and went through a period when it was my favorite submission. With all that "live" experience, I had still never encountered this information or perspective. Now I am aware of much tinier points of finesse with the kimura.

Ready for the kicker? It took a whole bunch of dead reps to make these changes in my kimura, and some of them STILL aren't there when I drill it live. So I need to get MORE reps in.

Short version, for the skimmers: I believe that dead reps are needed to develop very subtle movements in one's technique, not just the general feel.

I think this tiny, tiny point is the source of our disagreement. I will enjoy continuing this discussion.

~Chris

30

i haven't read this whole thread, but having a solid base of 'dead' repetition of fundamental movements and techniques is absolutely essential to almost every practitioner. moving too quickly to -only- live drilling results in bad habits and poor fundamentals that never get corrected. you see this over and over in a vast majority of practitioners.

31

a great experiment is to have your average blue belt take a basic technique he likes but does not have much success with, say the straight armbar from guard. have him rep it (good reps, first bunch coached by instructor so you know he is doing it right) say 1000 times on his good side, 1500 times on his weak side. for this whole period, he is not allowed to use it in sparring. once he finishes, have him try to get it on everyone in sparring. the difference will be night and day. i have seen this with my own eyes, sick improvements from this method with many people in our gym. it will be a huge jump in skill on this one technique that he may have been using in 'live' drilling for years without significant improvement.

32

Think about the TIME it will be needed to put in 2500 reps. OMG!

Twinkletoes: The internet is a wonderful thing. We can have a conversation we otherwise couldn't... too bad we cannot have an ACTUAL conversation and rolling session:D

I made myself a little too little clear - of course it is not about "winning". It is the coaches job to take care that the people will leave their ATTRIBUTES out of the game. If this is done THEN if one can escape mount then he/she is good to go in my book. Meaning that a big guy bridging smaller guys off is still a big nono for me as a coach:)

Are you absolutely positive on your kimura example that these microscopic defferences will really always be needed and be available when going for a kimura "live"? Aren't you sure that just rolling with n00bs with the objective of going for the kimura would be a better way? (I think you know the story about how Baret Yoshida got his excellence at triangles and armbars).

To me for example when I think about submissions now is that they are all about the setups. The final execution is just a formal point in the end of a sentence (which I know by heart). And other thing are the adequate followups when something goes not as planned. Both of which I feel I develop best when actually rolling with different persons while having a personal objective - e.g. a specific submission or getting to the position for a submission and then letting them escape.

Could you give me an example on couple of the tiny details of kimura (hehe:). I personally right now can't think that there would not be anything in finishing it that would really matter OR which I wouldn't already know and teach to my students when they first learn it.

33

Im gonna go with mg and TT!! For me, I gotta do dead drills/reps first. However im an old dude trying to survive in a young mans game. By the way TT THANX for the reps last week. The techniques are all starting to sink into my gray matter. Might need more dead reps though!! Ha! Ha!

34

Jorx,

I know, this would be FUN in person!

You asked: Are you absolutely positive on your kimura example that these microscopic defferences will really always be needed and be available when going for a kimura "live"? Aren't you sure that just rolling with n00bs with the objective of going for the kimura would be a better way? (I think you know the story about how Baret Yoshida got his excellence at triangles and armbars).

Yes, I know the Baret story. :)

YES, these little differences will always be there. They are not situational--they are just REALLY specific mechanics! They concern aspects like exactly where my forearm touches the back of his upper arm, and the motion of my wrists when I begin to bring my back towards the ground.

As far as rolling with noobs and putting it in, that's the next step! But there are so many of these little things that I need to modify, that I am starting via dead reps and then moving to live ones!

~Chris

PS - Rick, you're welcome! Anytime, mi amigo!

35

I can personally attest to some of those little details twinkletoes is talking about making HUGE differences in finishing percentages, AND that they need to be repped statically for muscle memory purposes before you "remember" to do them live.

Just goes back to what I was saying about "cycles" between the static and dynamic methods of training.  You need both, and you need to alternate them as your skill levels, knowledge, and understanding progress.

I think there also needs to be a distinction made:  Some people are EXTREME visual learners.  What I mean by this is that they can simply WATCH a technique being done, go out and do it statically a few times, and then have such a high level of innate coordination that they can actually pull it off when sparring - that same day!!  Then there is the MAJORITY of practitioners who need to put the time in doing static reps to develop that same coordination, muscle memory, and kinesthetic and spatial awareness - and that all takes time and a LOT of repping for most.
The visual learners will argue all day long about how you should never need more than 10 reps - because that is what works for THEM.  The kinesthetic/tactile learners will argue all day long about how they need hundreds - even thousands - of reps, because that is what works for THEM.

Part of being a good coach is also identifying the different ways that students learn and what they need, and providing the opportunity for them to get that.  I strongly disagree with the statement: "Meaning that unless it's a really complicated move I do not see anyone at bluebelt level and above needing more than 10 reps of any move before adding resistance. Maybe 10 reps again some other day (the same move) and so on time to time to refine the fine points. But that's it." I've been blessed in the 12 years I've taught submission grappling with TWO extreme visual learners.  10 reps is more than enough for them, and definitely live sparring is the best way for them to improve.  The rest of my blue belt students DEFINITELY need more than 10 reps before adding resistance.

Again, from personal experience I can remember the first time I did 500 static reps of the elevator sweep on each side (as my instructor asked me to do).  I was at the threshold of testing for purple belt at the time (which was delayed two years due to a car accident injury), and I was GENUINELY SURPRISED at how much I learned betweeen reps 300 and 400, and how much it CARRIED OVER to live sparring with resistance.  Obviously, I had done that technique many hundreds of time in sparring already......... but I picked up little details in statically repping the move that live sparring with resistance just doesn't afford you the TIME to be able to pick out and realize. 

It IS too bad there can't be a live discussion on this, Jorx.  I think you'd be surprised at how effective some of those little details can be, and I strongly believe you'd be convinced of how - as important as live resistant sparring is - you can still learn and improve dramatically by doing static reps.

36

I am not saying doing dead reps would lead to improvement. I'm just saying in my mind if the same time would be spent live drilling / rolling (under a good coach who takes care that you are not doing anything fundametally wrong or spazzing etc) would lead to MORE improvement:)

But we would need a double blind experiment to actually verify that:) Easier said than done:)

I do not agree on visual vs. kinesthetic learners needing a different number of reps. I think it is a matter of general talent not the learning style. A good visual yes might see the technique once and yes pull it off but a good kinesthetic will do it couple of times (and have it done on him) and then will pull it of just as easily.

Still Twinkletoes.... give me some details on kimura I want to test it out:)

In my opinion if I am already as far that I'm having the kimura grip from the guard and the wrist is away from his body then I can finish it as well.

Getting there is a matter of setup.

If he does the technical counter of rotating his arm across my belly and pushing away then I will not get it.

In that case I will need some good followups.

37

?'m with twinkle toes and co on this one. It's down to training styles though. Everyone has an opinion. Different things work for different people.

38

Jorx,

Here is where the root of our disagreement becomes even smaller and more precise. :)

You wrote: "If he does the technical counter of rotating his arm across my belly and pushing away then I will not get it"

If this happens to me, then I have not done the kimura correctly. There are several parts to the mechanics of the kimura that prevent him from turning his arm in this way. Some of these are small...and some are large.

I have some movements that I consider "counters to the counter". I would not list the movements I mention above in this category, because I don't consider that to be a common counter [when the kimura is applied correctly].

I'm guessing that this may mean that we even have different definitions of what it means to execute a technique successfully. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm....... :)

Back to you. :)

~Chris

PS - Sometimes I do the kimura differently, to allow him to rotate his arm in this way. I do that because I am going to drag his arm as he rotates it, either for triangle or for taking the back.