My squats are falling apart.
I began Starting Strength about a month or so ago. I havent missed a session. I started the weight for my squats at 185 and increased by 10 lbs until I hit 265 and then 5lbs increments to 280.
At 280 i felt like my form was falling apart and i was doing more of a "good morning" than a squat at times. I could feel myself coming forward and having to lift hard with my back.
so i reset to 265, back up to 280 and same shit.
so i reset to 255 this time. and then at 265 i just fall apart completely. I have to bail out on my first set after 3 reps.
I do 225 for 5x2 afterwards just to make sure i did some work.
but WHAT THE FUCK??
I think i'm getting way too mental with this. thinking too many cues, too many technical positions and movements while i'm doing the squat that i forget to hip drive.
i'm using the cue from rippetoe for hip drive that is as follows (something like):
imagine a hand on your sacrum, push up against that hand.
and then i guess at some point in that process, if your chest is up and your lower back has that firm hard arch, your quads just take over and finish the lift.
if its not my hip drive, its my back rounding. if its not my back rounding its my head coming up to look in the mirror. if its not that then i'm not going deep enough. or not driving knees out far enough. or not bouncing. or whatever. or "good morninging" it up.
I guess I'm just venting. Its becoming a mental thing.
So i'm going to deload to 225 and go back up by 10's again. and just make sure i get the form perfect perfect the whole time.
deadlifted 370 1x5 today
bench 195 5x3 today
power clean 190 3x5 last session
overhead press 135 5x3 last session
each of those lifts continues to move along linerally so i dont think its my diet or recovery.
its that these squats are in my head!
anyone else have this experience? what do?
You may just need a deload week. But you may also just have a weak link in your chain.
What was your training history like before beginning starting strength? Going from 185 to 280 in about a month or so is a great improvement, so it isn't surprising that you may hit a speed bump in your progress.
Matt and Leigh both make good points. Sometimes, you find good form again when you have that "lift it or go home" weight. However, from what you're describing from your complaints, it sounds like you might have a weakness in your lower back/hips/glutes. You might want to try some assistance work for those areas, and deload the squats themselves for a bit.
Also, there's a point where adding 5 a week is damn nigh impossible. It's why Ripp's program, or Stronglifts 5x5, etc, all state they are "beginner" programs. After a period, you just can't add and need to make changes to the workout. For example, squatting only twice a week, or doing a "heavy" day and a "speed" day become necessary eventually.
VIdeo yourself and post it on Rip's forum, he'll tell you exactly what's wrong.
How can you beat that? ;-)
None So Blind - VIdeo yourself and post it on Rip's forum, he'll tell you exactly what's wrong.
How can you beat that? ;-)
If you have Dave Tate do it, he'll teach you twenty new ways to use the word "fuck" as well.
Leigh's point about not dropping down all the time is a good one. I fall into the habit of hitting sticking points and resetting to work on form. Sometimes you just have to struggle with heavy ass weight and fail for a few weeks before you break thru. 
MattB ATC - You may just need a deload week. But you may also just have a weak link in your chain.
What was your training history like before beginning starting strength? Going from 185 to 280 in about a month or so is a great improvement, so it isn't surprising that you may hit a speed bump in your progress.
i had maxed out at low 200's previously. so 280 was a lot of new ground for me.
when i remember to drive the hips the way rip describes, the weight moves with ease.
its that transition point.
tell me,
should it feel like two distinctly different phases? hip drive then the quads to stand you up? or more like i remember from the front squat which was just straight blast up.
Leigh - stop all that dropping back stuff. if your form is bad then maybe you need it but sometimes you build form by just having to move a heavy weight and everything HAS to go right for it to movelooking up is something that starting strength highly discourages. what does it do for you?
stick with heavy squats. and look up when you squat
Chocolate Shatner - Matt and Leigh both make good points. Sometimes, you find good form again when you have that "lift it or go home" weight. However, from what you're describing from your complaints, it sounds like you might have a weakness in your lower back/hips/glutes. You might want to try some assistance work for those areas, and deload the squats themselves for a bit.
Also, there's a point where adding 5 a week is damn nigh impossible. It's why Ripp's program, or Stronglifts 5x5, etc, all state they are "beginner" programs. After a period, you just can't add and need to make changes to the workout. For example, squatting only twice a week, or doing a "heavy" day and a "speed" day become necessary eventually.
i read that two or three times of not being able to progress through a plateau after deloading is a sign that you need different programming.
i'm a big dude though. 6'4 248. i think my novice strength gains should be more than just a 280 squat, no?
i will say this, my ass has never looked so good. i fill out all my pants now with a booty i never had before. its clear my glutes and hamstrings are working
I agree with the others on a weakness in your chain. Sometimes it is weakness in your core muscles, or it could be a flexibility issue with your hips.
How deep do you usually go? Are you ass to ankles or are you just going halfway?
hip crease below knees
i was the most flexible person at my crossfit gym (hahah!) and i've done lots and lots of yoga...i really dont think that is it.
IMO, at the start of learning the movement it may feel like two distinct movements, but after learning the movement should feel very fluid. The fact that you are even thinking of that makes me think you are getting into your own head and over-thinking the lift.
Keeping proper technique is always vitally important, but you should only require a minimal amount of cues (elbows down/tight upper back, spread the floor) and the rest should be natural.
In Leigh's recommendation of "looking up", I'm not a fan of going into cervical extension/bringing your head up, but there have been shown benefits to keeping your neck neutral but looking upward with your eyes. But when going for a max effort lift, your technique will not be perfect and if you watch top level powerlifters, many drive their neck back into the bar and their head up during the lift.
If possible, post a video of your squat technique and we may be able to give more guidance. I'd take a good look at where you are breaking and determine if you have a "weak chain" issue. Possible a lack of lumbar stability during those heavy loads, poor hip positioning/weak external rotators, or improper muscle firing patterns.
dc1000 - i read that two or three times of not being able to progress through a plateau after deloading is a sign that you need different programming.
i'm a big dude though. 6'4 248. i think my novice strength gains should be more than just a 280 squat, no?
THIS
I've said this a million times on here, so I apologize if you've read it before and it's a retread.
That said, I am 41 years old, started SS at 40. I'm 6'0, and I was ~190 pounds when I started it. I am an unathletic fuck, have never had anything remotely resembling any form of strength, speed, coordination, etc.
At my best point before an injury (not weights-related), I was up to 220 pounds in weight, and I was squatting ~325 for 3 sets of 5 before I hit the wall and switched to the intermediate program ("Texas Method"), where I got up to ~355 pounds on squat (don't have my notebook handy to check for sure, may have been 360).
If you have the kickboxing history you describe, I have little to no doubt that you are in fact more athletic than me ;-) You are also a fuck load bigger (height and weight, and I'm betting your frame is bigger too).
There is no conceivable reason other than some kind of illness or major physical problem (like a slipped disc or pulled muscle) that you should be lifting less than me. I think you hit the nail on the head, you're overthinking it.
But you know what? That's completely fucking normal.
I started squatting with 85 pounds, and when I got to 225 the first time, it scared the shit out of me. Even though I did 220 for 3 sets of 5 with no problem, doing 225 and having those two big plates on each side made me nervous. I deloaded down to ~185 or so "just to make sure my form was good" (sound familiar?) Same exact thing happened when I got to 315 - I did 310 no problem, but those three wheels on each side made me positive that the weight would squish me dead the instant I unracked it and stepped back :-P Again, I deloaded down to s/t like 275 "just to make sure my form was good" (is there an echo in here! LOL)
At some point the weight gets HEAVY, and I don't mean that in terms of actual numbers. It simply hits a point where something in your body starts saying "holy shit, this could be dangerous, WTF am I doing?" It's perfectly reasonable to be nervous when you're moving big numbers. Assuming your form is good, you're not cheating, you're not making overly big jumps, you're likely pretty safe. But that could be a fairly big assumption - I still think videoing yourself is a good idea. Get a camera of some type (borrow one from a friend or family if need be), sit it on a chair beside you so you can see the angle of your back and the angle of your shins and the width of your feet and your depth in the squat, and try to spot any major errors yourself. If that doesn't reveal something brutally obvious, post it to Rip, and make sure you give him your history, height and weight, diet and sleep, etc.
He may be salty to you ;-) but he will also be helpful, no questions asked. I'd bet he will tell you that you are a pussy and need to sack up and hit the ~350 pound range that your frame says you can reach if you simply follow the beginner program :-)
Best advice I got on this forum for the same problem: take a week off.
I should just smash it up and make it happen.
funny thing is, I seem to be able to do more weight when I feel like my back is really working on it...sort of that good morning thing i was talking about.
and really, there is not problem getting out of the hole with my hips ever, its that transition point..and usually that fails because my back has collapsed, the bar comes forward and i have to lift up with my back.
i realize i just contradicted myself.
definitely will video my next session (wednesday) which will be my 16th session on SS.
I am happy with the progress in the rest of my lifts. 405 seems pretty close on the deadlifts. i'll be breaking through 200 on the bench and power clean shortly and reaching a new PR on the OH press....
just this damn squat.
i mean fuck! how hard is it? sit down stand up!
something has always been screwy...even while doing crossfit, my power clean and press was the same weight as my hanging squat clean and press because my power clean was stronger than my front squat.
that is probably not the case now but i've been out of balance it seems.
but wouldnt my deadlift numbers indicate that my legs aren't really that weak?
First congrats on your progress
Second relax you've just started
Third don't over think this
Too many scenarios. The best bet is to film yourself and show it to someone experienced
Its possible you need a longer deload period, its possible you just need someone to scream at you while you squat, its possible you need to switch workout program, its possible you are doing it wrong or that you simply werent built to squat heavy
Sorry if its no help
As always, some great feedback here. I am in the camp for taking some down time. A deload week or perhaps 10 days off completely to totally recharge.
Some folks just find it hard to sqaut heavy more than once per week. Not everyone fits into the cookie cutter 5X5 routines that are floating around out there.
TAKU
really, great comments, thanks
my favorite though, was "sack up"