"kawazu-gake is complex. this is a new one that we cannot do. imagine facing somebody, taking your left leg between his legs and then wrap it all the way around his right leg so that the instep of your foot is touching his shin. then use that to lift and throw him over that very leg. if it works you fly, if it doesnt you get your knee of ankle ruined."
Josh is kawazu-gake the takedown that Oleg Tatakerov (sp) used in some of his UFC fights?
I remember him slipping in on ... Dave Benneauto (speeling again LOL!). Oleg would slip down to the ground from the start of a fight and enter into some type of leg entanglement - and he got a submission atleast once as I remember.
I practiced it for a short time but was never able to get the movements correct, let alone perfect it to submission skill.
Thanks for all the info.
:-)
All versions of the guiltine choke are legal, if you don't bow/crank the neck, even the standing versions.
Karl
no, kawazu gake isn't that throw.. that's just one direction of finishing kani basami.
a guillotine is perfectly legal.. it's a variant of hadaka jime.. its illegal when you have to arch your back and extend his spine to finish it.
the majority of stanidng chokes in judo oare basic frontal lapel chokes. it is very difficult to maneuver yourself around your opponents side or back in judo so chokes from there are often impossible to get.
the thing you mucst keep in mind in judo is that the chokes that start standing, that are not seen as a sewaza transition, must finish standing as well. that means you cannot use the choke to take somebody into newaza with, the same with an armlock.
as well, if the guy picks you up off the mat, even 1 foot off the mat, while you are doing a standing strangle it is rather likely that the ref will stop the match. you cannot, period, no matter what, climb up uke's back while applying a standing strangle.
there are some refs out there, the lowest-level, regional ones mostly, who will screw-up calls on standing chokes a whole lot. be aware of this and just realize that what happened in 1 tournament and was called 1 way might not be so in the next. a bad ref can make something like a standing choke very dangerous.
-resnick
"...the thing you muct keep in mind in judo is that the chokes that start standing, that are not seen as a sewaza transition, must finish standing as well..."
So does this mean that if the recipiant of the standing choke just sits down on the ground, the choke will be nullified and broken up by the ref?
Sorta like grabbing the bottom rope in Prancrase or Pro Wrestling?
"not sure what trolling is .......but yeah someone tried that shit on me i would punch them in the head ...same as that standing arm bar shit.... "
usaclown has just shown he knows nothing about Judo, once again.
Ben Reinhardt
"kawazu-gake is done by the french player rodriguez , it is his main throw.......josh josh josh , have you ever been in europe and someone tried to do a standing choke,(i don't think so it's shit judo ) and would you ever want to go with that guy again ......if someone is doing something that could hurt me i will punch or throw a forearm to the head ...i can't do a diablo or whatever that move is called ...... "
Once again, usaclown shows his ignorance.
First off, you don't know what Kawazu Gake is. It is a separate throw in Judo, and it comes from Sumo. Josh kind of mangled it too, but he was closer.
In Kawazu Gake, you are facing in the same direction as your opponent, with them behind you. You do the "kawazu", which is the leg entanglement/grapevining, them jump backwards onto your opponent. This is a brutal move that can be very injurios to uke (leg/knee damage, landing on their gut with your butt/hips, pluse a potential vicous head but to their face plus or mines cracking their head on the mat), thus it has been illegal in shiai/randori for decades.
So your favorite frenchi DOES NOT DO that technique, or he would be DQ'ed every time. He probably uses kawazu in other throws.
Kawazu just means the leg entanglement. Many people use kawazu in Uchi Mata, Ouchi Gari, Osoto GAri, etc. It is perfectly legal as such. Everybody's favorit H. Yoshida used it in his Uchi Mata.
Josh is descriping a pickup type throw, usually some sort of Khabarelli, in which you face uke, do the kawazu to his leg, then tori JUMPS/TWISTS to his rear or rear corner, lifting uke up and hopefully over onto his back rather than shoulder or face. That move and related moves are illegal under IJF rules now.
Ben Reinhardt
A standing guillotine is legal under IJF rules, but you have to be very careful not to turn it into a neck crank,or make it even appear to look like a neck crank.
Regarding throwining after you apply/attempt a standing strangle, that is illegal. You can apply the strangle and use it to control the guy to the ground, but not throw, same as with armbars.
Other bits and pieces:
Standing waki gatame is abolutely legal, and you can use it to force the guy to the ground with control (as with any other arm bar). You cannot fall directly onto the arm, however. You cannot use armbars to lock up the arm and throw, as in aikido, Goshin Jutsu of Judo, or traditional japanese ju jutsu.
Kani Basami was not uncommonly used to purposely injure people. Even if not done on purpose, it was/is a darned dangerous throw to ukes knees/ankles.
Standing strangles are a low percentage move against most experienced judoka. I've had them tried on me in randori a bit, and a few times in shiai. For some reason it's the brown belts and lower who try them. I assume the saw the moves in a book or something. Anyway, I usually just throw them.
Ben R.
"Is the regular, legal waki-gatame also something that is very likely to cause injury? "
No, not in my opinion.
Ben R.
"All versions of the guiltine choke are legal, if you don't bow/crank the neck, even the standing versions. "
Absolutely correct, as is Todd.
Ben R.
What is the one choke/throw called where you x up your grip on both lapels, fall perpendicular in front of them and pull them over?
"the thing you mucst keep in mind in judo is that the chokes that start standing, that are not seen as a sewaza transition, must finish standing as well."
Josh, I think this is wrong.
that means you cannot use the choke to take somebody into newaza with, the same with an armlock."
This is incorrect as well as far as I know.
Did Dave Long or one of the others A's in your area tell you this? I've never had it come up at a ref meeting at any big event.
Ben R.
"as well, if the guy picks you up off the mat, even 1 foot off the mat, while you are doing a standing strangle it is rather likely that the ref will stop the match. you cannot, period, no matter what, climb up uke's back while applying a standing strangle."
This is correct I know for sure.
Ben R.
""...the thing you muct keep in mind in judo is that the chokes that start standing, that are not seen as a sewaza transition, must finish standing as well..."
So does this mean that if the recipiant of the standing choke just sits down on the ground, the choke will be nullified and broken up by the ref?
Sorta like grabbing the bottom rope in Prancrase or Pro Wrestling?"
No. As a referee, I would let the action continue if the choke looked like it was being effective.
The effect of a strangle has to be apparent quickly, either standing or on the ground. Otherwise, barring a transition to another position or technique, a standup would result.
Ben R.
anthony rodriguez won the last 2003 french judo championships against darcel yandzi in under _81 kgs category.
he doesnt use kawazu gake anymore cuz its forbidden but uses instead sumigaeshi and tomoe nage .
what i mean, perhpas i didnt explain it right, was that when you put the choke on in a standing position you cannot use a throw/takedown to get uke to the ground with the choke still applied. if uke goes to the tatami under his own will, or in an attempt to avoid the choke thats completly fine and you should just keep the choke up becuase its obviously being effective.
the rule for standing chokes would be the same for armlocks as far as i am aware. i think i didnt say that clearly enough before.
Ben, ive never discussed standing chokes before really. none of the refs here have ever mentioned them to us either. all of this is just coming from what i remember when i was first learning chokes all those years ago.
-resnick
off topic, but.. Yandzi, if i am remembering right, has been aorund for a very long time. didnt he take a bronze at the worlds in 93?
Ben, on ther KG explaination i tried to put up before. it was based on one of the photos that the IJF put out with the explaination as to what KG was and why it was now illegal. i am pretty sure that my explaination wasnt the best possible by the standards of a referee... =) its good to have you back.. how was the vacation and how is the lil one?
-resnick
"What is the one choke/throw called where you x up your grip on both lapels, fall perpendicular in front of them and pull them over? "
The one I learned you did not cross grip the lapels, but got highish lapel grips on either lapel. You then put your outside leg over the back of uke's neck. Jacques Legrand taught it as well as part of a shime waza kata that Kawaishi developed
One of my coaches called it a type of Hell Strangle, but he was the only person I knew who called it that.
It's also in Syd Hoare's "A-Z of Judo". His reference is Kawaishi.
Ben R.
Thanks for the reply, Josh. I agree, no throwing with a choke applied.
Ben R.