Stickfighting

Stickfighting

Bata


Stickfighting arts exist all over the world, I thought I would start with an Irish one which is relatively obscure, although it shouldn't be since caricatures of the Irish often show them carrying their "shillelagh" with them, especially held roughly in the middle and overhead.


The shillelagh was actually called a "bata" (Gaelic for "stick") more often than shillelagh. The normal use, other than general one-on-one bashing, was in a Faction Fight. TFS, I really think you should look into the Faction Fight aspect of the Irish stickfighting because I?m sure there will be many parallels with what you are researching with the Venetian Bridge Battles. At least on the level of sociological parallels if nothing else.


AFAIK, Ken Pfrenger is the leader here in the US in terms of promoting the bata. He has an overview of the bata at the link I give later. I think it will be easiest just to copy his Faction Fight paragraph, so here it is:


A little about the Faction fights: Faction fighting was prevalent from the seventeenth century up until the famine of the 1840's. Most often the factions were members of certain families or of political groups. Some of the more infamous factions were named Shanvest, Caravats, The Three year Olds, The four Year Olds, Coffeys, Reaskawallaghs, Cooleens, Black Mulvihills, Bogboys, Tobbers. Sometimes the fights would consist of hundreds or even thousands of men and women. The weapon of choice was the Bata. Although other weapons were brought to the fights, guns were rarely used (at least by the faction fighters...the police trying to control the riots are a different story altogether) Women used rocks, often wrapped up in a sock as their weapon, leaving the stick play to the men. Even though the women were free to hurl stones at the men and to wallop them with their loaded socks it was considered foul play to hit a woman with a stick. A large staff called a wattle was sometimes seen during the faction fights as well as the odd sword that had perhaps been in the family for years. Some fighters specialized in the use of two sticks. This was called the Troid de bata or two stick fight. The stick held in the off hand was used as a shield. There are reports of people using rocks in their off hand to bludgeon their opponents when they got inside, and there is even mention of bayonets being used in the off hand. After the 1840's the faction fights became fewer and farther in between. The last recorded Faction Fight was at a fair in Co Tipperary in 1887.


[I did make some grammatical corrections here- Ken does his own html and it's always toughest to catch your own mistakes]


As you can see, the Faction Fights look pretty damn interesting. Don't forget, these are some of the same guys who brought us the twisted art of purring (see Purring thread on History Forum). John Hurley, within the last year, has published a book wherein he pulls together accounts of Irish stickfighting from the works of William Carleton- a monumental task. You can buy it here:


Irish Gangs and Stickfighting in the Works of William Carletonhttp://www1.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=11114As depicted in period artwork, the bata was normally gripped with the hand positioned just past halfway down, closer to the pointy end (buta), rather than the knob end (ceann) of the stick. You'll find your comfort zone anywhere from 1/3 to ½ up the stick. An important consideration is to hold high enough so the stick can cover down to your elbow for blocking purposes.


Continued

I don't know how to give you the flavor of using the bata in words, but luckily Ken put up some video clips on his site. Looks like they are now located in the files section of the bata groups page at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bata/.

Go ahead and kick around his site for a thorough introduction to the bata:

Ken Pfrenger's Bata Page (really good)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4933/shillelagh.html

Ken's introduction to the bata (been copied on the web quite a few times, but he is the author)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4933/batatext.html

Within the last couple weeks, Glen Doyle's web pages on Uisce Beatha Bata Rince (Whiskey Stick Dancing) have been put up. This is Glen Doyle's family's style of Irish stick fighting that originated in the mid 1800's in the Connemara area. This site is a great addition since it shows an intact historical art that uses the bata in a 2-handed grip. He ahs some really good stuff on there, so check it out:
http://www.geocities.com/glendoyle/bata

Bata FAQ
http://users.telerama.com/~ysidro/batafaq.html

Great sociological piece, just search for this article: The Agreeable Recreation of Fighting Carolyn Conley Journal of Social History Fall 1999
www.findarticles.com

Shillelagh section from Donald Walker's "Defensive Exercises"
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4933/boxingtext.html

Shillelagh pages (3) from Phillips-Wollsey's "Broadsword and Singlestick"(1890)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4933/sft.html

"Fighting with a Blackthorn" section from Percy Longhurst, (1919)
http://www.geocities.com/cinaet/longhurst.html

An account of an 1889 faction fight can be found at the link below. Here's the listing in case the link doesn't work: Reminiscences of Irish Sport. A Country Race Meeting. Thos. S. Blackwell, Outing, July, 1889, Vol. XIV, No. 4, p. 265-269. (pdf), you can go to www.aafla.org and search on some of those terms.
http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_14/outXIV04/outXIV04d.pdf#xml=http://www.aafla.org/search/highlight.gtf?nth=2&handle=00000e5d

Who's next- post your favorite stick art!

Jason

interesting to note - the Shillelagh that most people think of in their minds eye isnt a Shillelagh at all - IIRC Shillelagh were actually band so they ended up looking like a gavel - they where actually more like walkinf canes with a big kob on the end -

some hyperlinks for the lazy cut and paster :-)Irish Gangs and Stickfighting in the Works of William Carletonbata vidclipsKen Pfrenger's Bata Page (really good)Ken's introduction to the bata (been copied on the web quite a few times, but he is the author)Glen Doyle's web pages on Uisce Beatha Bata Rince (Whiskey Stick Dancing)Bata FAQThe Agreeable Recreation of Fighting Carolyn Conley Journal of Social History Fall 1999Shillelagh section from Donald Walker's "Defensive Exercises"Shillelagh pages (3) from Phillips-Wollsey's "Broadsword and Singlestick"(1890)Fighting with a Blackthorn" section from Percy Longhurst, (1919)Reminiscences of Irish Sport. A Country Race Meeting. Thos. S. Blackwell, Outing, July, 1889, Vol. XIV, No. 4, p. 265-269. (pdf)

In the closet of my parents house is my dad's bata, which he got from his father, and it was originally his grandfathers. Not sure how much farther it goes back in the family, but I would likr to think it has cracked a few skulls before being retired to a walking stick :-)

Jason,Thanks for the tip--I'll check that stuff out, as some parallels with the Venetian battiglioli do appear to exist, from what you have posted.Stickgrappler,Thanks for those links--and BTW, I was wondering on how things were coming along with a certain "project" you were sending my way...Thanks as always,TFS

TFS,

half of the project is on hold - i moved work locations, before i was the only one in my dept in that branch, now i'm with the rest of my dept and cannot work on it :-(

the other half of the project, i started and somehow forgot mainly due to family. my sincerest apologies. will get on it again.

English singlestick/backsword:This is my "favorite" stick/sword art at the moment. I say this primarily because it has been the easiest to reconstruct with what martial sport/martial arts background I have (Western sports foil & saber, and Filipino eskrima).The term "singlestick" apparently refers to the fact that it is a single-handed weapon (as opposed to a double-handed weapon like a quarterstaff). For those who are not familiar with the weapon, it is essentially a stout ash dowel with a basket-hilt made from either thick wickerwork (hence, a "basket") or hardened leather. Thus, the singlestick is the wooden practice version of both the basket-hilted broadsword (double-edged) and backsword (single-edged). It can also be used to train with sabers (heavy fighting sabers, as opposed to the ultra-light Italian duelling models patterned after the orignal prototype devised by Giuseppe Raedelli in the late 19th century).As for the sword itself, it has its origins in the "closed hilt" or "single hilt" (basket-hilted) "short sword" (cut-and-thrust broadsword) championed by the great George Silver in the late 16th century. In fact, we could even go back a bit further, since such basket-hilted first appeared in German territories, around the middle of the 16th century (they were sometimes fitted to later katzbalger swords). The German/English/Scottish connection (in terms of the use of the basket-hilt) should not be overlooked, since the swords of this type appear to have originally been german in origin, and then were adopted elsewhere in Northern Europe. It is also probably no coincidence that so many Scottish basket-hilts have German blades. The only Southern European example of a basket-hilt is the really badass-looking Venetian schiavona, but I digress...So, back to the stick weapon. I bring up all of the above concerning the swords because, while any stick can be a weapon in its own right, it is clear that the singlestick was predominantly a training tool for swordplay, due to its specialized hilt. From the descriptions of cudgelling/backswording in 18th century England, it also appears that the techniques of cutting involved were indeed similar to those still seen in modern German mensuren with sharp schlager swords. There's clearly a connection of some sort here, and the fact that both the singlestick and the schlager have their origins in earlier broadsword systems, this is to be expected.On thing I have noticed about using any basket-hilted sword or stick is that it obviously allows you to execute both offensive and defensive actions that appear to be impossible without risking the integrity of your sword-hand. In turn, someone who is trained predominantly to strike at an opponent's sword-hand must now adjust his distance somewhat and go for the wrist and/or forearm instead. The experimenting that YL and I have done in this regard has been enlightening, to say the least.Using a singlestick in the "hanging guard" (either the modern variety with the point still threatening the opponent, or in the more radical-looking "True Gardant Ward" of Silver, where there is no threat from the point) offers all kinds of defensive and counteroffensive possibilites at your disposal. Playing with this weapon and its style gives you an idea of the emphasis that Silver placed on being able to defend oneself (while he criticized others of being too preoccupied with offending the enemy).

I'll post more on the historical aspects of the weapon and the art later, but this is what immediately came to mind at the moment.Sincerely,TFSP.S. Those HF/WMA folks who seem to draw such a distinct line between modern sports fencing (in this case, predominantly saber) and earlier forms of swordsmanship would do well to re-evaluate their findings, or perhaps even take up some sports fencing classes. John Clements, in particular, has made much about how "far removed" sports fencing is from "real combat", and yet, one could supposedly say the same thing about sports wrestlers today--and these same sports wrestlers have often been able to translate their base of skills (takedowns, sense of balance, keeping a good base, & "rolling") to the obviously more combat-oriented martial sports and arts. The same can most definitely be said about sports fencing. Look at the cutting attacks in modern sports saber, and then compare them to singlestick/backsword--you will find that if you add the "fist" grip (as opposed to the modern "saber" grip), the hanging guard, moulinets (molinelli), and "passing" footwork, the differences are not so marked as Clements and some others might have you think. The angles for the cuts are still there. The targets are still there (depending upon the rules, etc). The use of feints, timing, distance, etc., all still come into play. In fact, since sports fencers use such light weapons (and with much control), making the change over to the heavier types is usually not that big of a deal--if anything, sports fencers will, on average, have a far better sense of things like point control, since that is something they specifically emphasize in their training anyway. Just a personal observation.

SG,TFS, half of the project is on hold - i moved work locations, before i was the only one in my dept in that branch, now i'm with the rest of my dept and cannot work on it :-( the other half of the project, i started and somehow forgot mainly due to family. my sincerest apologies. will get on it again.That's fine, bro--take your time. I just hadn't heard anything in a while, so I thought I'd just ask. :-)Stay Strong,TFS

P.S. Those HF/WMA folks who seem to draw such a distinct line between modern sports fencing (in this case, predominantly saber) and earlier forms of swordsmanship would do well to re-evaluate their findings, or perhaps even take up some sports fencing classes.Bah!

:-)


Jason

World Singlestick Fencing Federation-check out the site, especially the links page:
http://ahfaa.org/wsff.htm

I should have announced it on here, but I forgot all about it. John Sullins held a singlestick seminar and tournament in Binghamton, NY just awhile back. I didn't go, but I think the idea was a great one. Sorry, about that guys...I'll be sure to advertise the next one.

Jason Couch

Kind of a funny question, but is this the type of Irish stickfighting that is depicted in Leonardo Di Caprio's new movie "The Gangs of New York?"

Haven't seen the film, but a customer review on Amazon.com said

"Before you see Martin Scorcese's film 'Gangs Of New York', read John W. Hurley's book 'Irish Gangs And Stick-Fighting'. Scorcese's film is based on the first half of the book'The Gangs Of New York' which deals exclusively with Irish gangs. And while it's flashy and exotic, there isn't much substance in the original book; it doesn't explain the traditions of the Irish gangs or the famous Irish shillelagh, it simply describes them in a sensational way. Hurley's book remedies this problem. It provides first hand accounts of Irish gangs and fights, written by a 'reformed' Irish stick-fighter, and vividly describes Ireland's fighting culture which was goverened by a code of honour which Hurley rightly calls 'Shillelagh Law'. If you are Irish or have an interest in Irish gangs, Irish boxing, the shillelagh, or Scorcese's film, you will really enjoy this book - I highly recommend it."

The Hurley book is basically a literary account from someone familiar with the culture (Wiliiam Carleton). The "Agreeable Recreatin of Fighting" article is a sociological work with numerous fight examples, not limited to stick, but all forms of recreational violence in Ireland. Plus it's available free on the web ;-)

Jason

if anyone has ever played hurling, you will know that stick fighting is alive and well in ireland. its like lacrosse with a field hockey stick.

I've walked down the street with a hurley bat in my hand, and had people cross the street to avoid me. I'm assuming it was the bat. ;)

FYI- Hurley's book is available retail too.
I saw it at Galway Traders, an Irish import shop here in Seattle. I figured it would pop up here at the "History Forum Where Every Thread Is About Europe" eventually. :)

Oh, and Jason's right, sport fencing is seriously wuss. ;) Put the sword down TFS, that's a joke.

Thanks for posting the Whiskey Stick Fighting link, I hadn't seen that yet. Great stuff!

TH

Bah!:-)Jason*** Oh, and Jason's right, sport fencing is seriously wuss. ;) Put the sword down TFS, that's a joke.*** LOL, here we go again... :-0 :-)Fact #1--Modern sports saber can be "played" in two ways--either in total "modern" mode (which admittedly leaves much to be desired), or in (for lack of a better term) "classical" mode. In the case of the latter, it is a good prep for more combative forms of swordplay. Don't knock it until you've tried it.Fact #2--James Figg, the great Pugilist and Cudgeller, was also a teacher of the smallsword. The techniques from epee fencing can be traced directly to the smallsword. Was Figg a "wuss" then, for teaching this weapon?Fact#3--There are many techniques and strategies in the Italian school of fencing that still contain elements of much earlier rapier technique. Passata soto, for example, was still being taught by the Italians for epee fencing long after the French had abandoned it. Hell, even the very design for the hilt of the Italian foil/epee bears a strong resemblance to earlier rapiers and some smallswords, with its crossbar and finger rings. Professor William Gaugler, who has written several books on fencing, and was also a student of the great Aldo Nadi, recently wrote a reply to criticisms of his History of Fencing book by both John Clements and Stephen Hand--check it out on Amberger's site:http://www.swordhistory.com/excerpts/hacareply.htmlIt's rather interesting to see a sport fencer's point of view concerning these topics.As I have stated before, I certainly don't feel that sports fencing encompasses everything (how could it?), but the fact remains that it teaches valuable techniques, strategies, and physical skills. That cannot be denied whatsoever. EVERYONE who tries to "reconstruct" WMA should first have some sort of training or background in an established martial art and/or sport, be it Western sports fencing, wrestling, Asian martial arts, or some combination thereof. In fact, William Gaugler has proposed the following:I believe that anyone wishing to practice and teach rapier technique should first complete at least one year of fencing instruction in the system of the Roman-Neapolitan school.For everyone's information, the "Roman-Neapolitan school" is modern Italian fencing--i.e., foil, epee, and saber.I realize that I have stressed this sort of thing before, but, when I see things like Christian Tobler's Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship (has anyone seen the wrestling section? It's really bad), it reminds me what can happen when someone who clearly has no background in a certain aspect of martial arts (in Tobler's case, clearly the wrestling) decides to "interpret" an old fechtbuch--Ringeck is probably shaking his head with that one...Respectfully,TFS

Oh, and here's the link for Stephen Hand's original criticism of Gaugler's work...

http://www.swordhistory.com/excerpts/hand.html

Ireland's fighting culture which was goverened by a code of honour

interesting - i think this still goes on - a buddy of mine was in a small town in ireland visting relatives and such - he comes from the mean streets of New Jersey (the ghetto part - he's white) - so he gets into a brawl in a pub and pulls out his afro pick (he had hair like robert plant) to use as a weapon - the whole pub freaks as if he'd pull out a machine gun or something - obviously it was poor form not to fight with his fists

I'm sure the answer to my next question will be "yes" but I'll ask it anyway. Could it be said that most practitioners of Bata carried canes as a primary weapon of choice to use in self defense? Or did they just carry a short stick as shown in some of the Bata videos that are linked above?

Also, I'm curious if there is any corollation between Bata and Cannes as found in Savate? Or are they two distinct stickfighting arts?

Takedown?