I wanted to start a discussion on this, because a lot of people talk about 'sport-specific strength', 'leverage' and 'using an opponent's strength against him/overcoming strength with technique' but I'm finding that it can only be done when there is a large skill disparity i.e. a brown belt against a newbie.
An instructor cited once that he has 130 lb blue belts that can manhandle 200lb + powerlifters with ease. What about a powerlifter with 6 months of training against that 130 lb blue belt? What do these things tell you about the importance of strength?
Regarding sport-specific strength vs. basic strength-is there really a difference once a high level of strength is met? Are you doing yourself a disservice by not hitting the weight room and developing a high level of basic strength?
I once bought into the idea that a good 170 lb blue belt would take apart a 220 lb, untrained powerlifter. I look at the size of some of the guys out there and I think twice about that now.
Likewise aerobic/anaerobic conditioning and muscular endurance. You can have the best technique out there or be strong as an ox. Once you run out of gas you're done.
I'm seriously starting to reevaluate the whole training paradigm. I'm starting to feel that developing physical attributes is MORE important than developing technical skill (once a basic skill level is established).
Strength definitely helps a LOT. I've been doing jiu jitsu less than 2 years, and big strong guys who have more than 6mos experience give me trouble (I'm 140 lbs). The thing is, it isn't just strength though. Some guys are big and strong and give me zero trouble, while others don't quite have their size, but have good instincts to know when they are in trouble. Those guys give me a LOT of problems.
The thing is, not everyone can be freakishly strong. I'm just not built for it, for example. I could do powerlifting 5 days a week, and I might be strong for my weight, but I will always be outclassed by big guys who lift the same amount. Jiu jitsu skill, on the other hand, doesn't have the same theoretical limit for me. Look at marcelo garcia if you doubt me. He is not physically imposing, but he beats much larger opponents with ease, unless they are also among the top 10 most skilled BJJ guys in the world. I just think my time is better spent learning skills that I can directly apply. If I lift weights on a given day, the strength benefit is miniscule. If I learn a new triangle setup, my game might immediately improve.
EricM, define conditioning, and do you believe that strength should fall under the category of conditioning by your definition? Not being tricky I'm genuinely interested.
I think skill is a definite must have, but if your opponents are bigger than you and have some semblence of technical ability, you will need conditioning-endurance and strength.
You can have all the bjj skills in the world but if you dont have the gas, you will always lose in a long fight.
This has been discussed before, and you are both right in theory. The problem comes when trying to isolate conditioning from skill.
I can roll all day long with huge guys, providing they have little skill. But I get extremely tired in about 2 minutes rolling with guys my size who are equal to or better than I.
Neither of these, however, really tells you about how well I might do in a 10K or a CrossFit workout. Where does this leave us? I guess with the realization that conditioning is both sport specific and, like time, relative.
I tend to have a more pragmatic view. I look at Bjj like any other sport/physical activity. And because I view Bjj in such a way I believe the same principles that apply to other sports/physical activities also apply to Bjj.
I think any performance, particular top level performance, in any given sport/physical activity, including Bjj, is essentially a "intergration" of ALL the qualities and attributes of the indiviudual.
In my mind there are three very board and general categories or areas that are "intergrated" in a given performance. They are:
1) Technical/Tactical.
2) Physical ability and capability.
3) Physical strength and conditioning.
I think a person who desires to be good and skillfull in a particular physical artform like Bjj needs to develop ALL three areas AND, more importantly, uses these areas TOGETHER.
I think what happens more often then not is an individual has develop one or may two areas at the exclusions of the others; or they have developed each area BUT don't use them TOGETHER.
My former Judo instructor would always preach to me the importance of USING everything TOGETHER. And when you fight or spar with someone, particularly in competition, you are to use all that you had; your technique, your physical attributes, your experience, your mind, your will/faith; in conjunction.
To often people focus on one thing at the exclusion of the areas and ultimately are unbalanced in their development.
Yes, it sucks that all a big, strong guy has to do to beat you (as a relatively physically weak white or blue belt) is to train for a few months in BJJ.
However, after having been around many purple belts during this last year, it seems to me that around purple belt level, this CHANGES.
The PURPLE belts seem to be able to beat big, strong guys that have been training for a while, know the BJJ game and are white belts or even blue belts.
Since I am a blue belt and no longer a raw beginning one, I'm starting to see where my skill level needs to be for the purple belt. And I'm starting to feel that I'm getting close to being able to beat most of the big, strong guys that have also been training for several months.
I'm one of these big, strong newer, guys with 9 months experience and I can overpower the skill of many blue belts, especially if they're less than 200 lbs. But then at the purple belt level, even much smaller guys (70 lbs difference and more) just seem to off-balance me and use their weight perfectly, and MOST of all: they anticipate what i'm going to do and they beat me to the punch, or they lie in wait and spring a trap on me.
"The PURPLE belts seem to be able to beat big, strong guys that have been training for a while, know the BJJ game and are white belts or even blue belts."
I find this to be true, and I am a purple belt. The dude has to have a high level of technique to be a problem. You know you are on the right track when the roided out dudes,or the guy who wrestled for 10 years isn't a problem. Of course I am about 200lbs, but 260s and uparen't really bad oranything. You sort of get to a level where you are just sensitive to how people are using strength. Also, there is something mental about the strength used in BJJ. It is almost like will power, it comes from your mind first, body second.
I am a 41 year old purple belt. What separates me and the younger guys is experience and conditioning.
At a high blue belt level I saw the importance of conditioning.
I weigh 180lbs and don't like to roll with really big guys. (Reason: "self preservation" per Kid Peligro)
After being asked several times by a 260lbs white belt to roll, I finally agreed. At the end of sparring after tapping him 3 times in 5-6 minutes he asked, "Did you not want to roll with me because you knew how easy it would be." I said, "No you are just too big."
My point, I unbalanced this 260lbs. 20 something year old athletic guy with ease and he understood the ease in which it was done.
So there is something to what was said about the level of purple belts and big guys.