Stupid to go to the UFC early on in career?

Underground
1

I've been saying it for years, but I don't understand why some fighters, in particular ones with championship aspirations,  are so eager to get into the UFC so quickly. Yes, the UFC is obviously the superbowl of MMA and pays the most, but it also has the toughest fighters. It seems like in most cases its better to build up your record outside the UFC and then cross-over to the UFC than it is to start in the UFC earlier in your career and rack up wins and losses and shoot for fight bonuses.

The following are examples of fighters that built their name outside the UFC and then crossed over versus similarly ranked fighters who fought in the UFC earlier on in their career. For comparison purposes, I did not include current or former UFC champions.

Alistair Overeem - #3 ranked HW - $1M signing bonus, $264K/$121K, PPV points

Roy Nelson  - #11 ranked HW - $24K/$24K

________________________________________________________

Dan Henderson - #4 ranked LHW - $250K, probably PPV points

Alex Gustaffson - #5 ranked LHW - $30K/$30K

_________________________________________________________

Hector Lombard -  #6 ranked MW- $400K signing bonus, $300K per fight, PPV points

Chris Weidman - #3 ranked MW - $22K/$22K

__________________________________________________________

Nick diaz - #4 ranked WW - $200K (in  a loss)

Rory Mcdonald - #9 ranked WW - $21K/$21K

___________________________________________________________

Eddie Alvarez - #6 ranked LW - $250K signing bonus, $75K/$75K, PPV points

Gray Maynard - #4 ranked LW  - $26K/$26K

 

My conclusion is that unless you are desperate to impress chicks by showing you fite UFC, then at least for the high level guys, its better to build your career outside the UFC and then cross-over...better to develop your skills, better to control how often you fight, and, based on the above, better for the wallet...

2

Totally. Just ask Rory, Jonny Bones, Michael McDonald...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...wait.

3

U. F.ight C.heap

4

yellow wrkahlc - 


Totally. Just ask Rory, Jonny Bones, Michael McDonald...



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



...wait.



you mean the rory that is making $21K/$21K or the michael mcdonald that is making $8K/$8K?



 



and do you really think if Jon started up in Bellator or strikeforce he wouldnt be in a position to make the same amount of money now?

5

Because guys with money already have real management, bargaining tools etc.

A young guy signs an 8 fight contract as a no name, then becomes a name after 4 fights, and where is he.

It doesn't matter when you enter, but you have to be smart about it and your potential.

6

shaqitup - Because guys with money already have real management, bargaining tools etc.

A young guy signs an 8 fight contract as a no name, then becomes a name after 4 fights, and where is he.

It doesn't matter when you enter, but you have to be smart about it and your potential.


it doesnt matter when you enter? did you even read my post..look at the disparity between lombard and weidman, for example..weidman is pretty much universally ranked higher but his pay is DWARFED in comaprison to lombard

7

Sketchy comparisons because Reem, Diaz, and Hendo all competed for big leagues early in their careers anyway. Diaz and Hendo were both in the UFC; Reem and Hendo were in Pride.
Also, if Diaz didn't have that UFC experience he likely wouldn't have gotten his shot at Gomi, which really made him much more respected as a legitimate contender. That also led to the deals he got in EliteXC/SF, which led to his current UFC deal.
As far as Lombard/Alvarez are concerned, they got more money because the UFC had to beat out Bellator's offer. Bellator isn't exactly the local circuit considering their exposure/backing.
And let's not forget the chance that they'll get stuck in a deal with a lower tier organization and never be able to make that big sponsorship money (Alvarez/Melendez both had that issue).

8

Orcus Knows MMA Better Than Goku - 
yellow wrkahlc - 


Totally. Just ask Rory, Jonny Bones, Michael McDonald...



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



...wait.



you mean the rory that is making $21K/$21K or the michael mcdonald that is making $8K/$8K?



 



and do you really think if Jon started up in Bellator or strikeforce he wouldnt be in a position to make the same amount of money now?



They'll get there eventually. 



Remember, they're young guys. Marketability comes into play, as well. If they keep winning in impressive fashion, their next contracts will be big money. 



 



You have a point, not arguing that.

9
Mr Mister - 
yellow wrkahlc -

Totally. Just ask Rory, Jonny Bones, Michael McDonald...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...wait.

You should read the thread before trying to be funny Phone Post



I did, but I opted to be funny anyway.

10

Death Beast - Sketchy comparisons because Reem, Diaz, and Hendo all competed for big leagues early in their careers anyway. Diaz and Hendo were both in the UFC; Reem and Hendo were in Pride.
Also, if Diaz didn't have that UFC experience he likely wouldn't have gotten his shot at Gomi, which really made him much more respected as a legitimate contender. That also led to the deals he got in EliteXC/SF, which led to his current UFC deal
As far as Lombard/Alvarez are concerned, they got more money because the UFC had to beat out Bellator's offer. Bellator isn't exactly the local circuit considering their exposure/backing.


you are so easily dismissing the comparisons without really providing a good argument...lets take each one and analyze it..



 



reem - never fought in the ufc, fought in outside orgs, got built up, signed huge deal in the UFC



diaz - fought in the ufc, but was making peanuts, builds up his name in other orgs, mostly against good matchups, gets a fat payday in the ufcv and loses



hendo - fought in the ufc wayyy back making peanuts, had big wins outside the ufc which led to his bigger paycheck now



lombard/alvarez - yes, the whole point is that if you fight in another league that wants you, the ufc will outbid them..but if you are only in the ufc, ufc doesnt have to outbid anyone

11

yellow wrkahlc - 
Orcus Knows MMA Better Than Goku - 
yellow wrkahlc - 


Totally. Just ask Rory, Jonny Bones, Michael McDonald...



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



...wait.



you mean the rory that is making $21K/$21K or the michael mcdonald that is making $8K/$8K?



 



and do you really think if Jon started up in Bellator or strikeforce he wouldnt be in a position to make the same amount of money now?



They'll get there eventually. 



Remember, they're young guys. Marketability comes into play, as well. If they keep winning in impressive fashion, their next contracts will be big money. 



 



You have a point, not arguing that.



roy nelson aint that young...gray maynard aint that young..he went on a big win streak for the ufc (8 wins) and hes fought for a title mutiple times...hes ranked higher than alvarez..yet alvarez makes MUCH more than him...

12

Orcus Knows MMA Better Than Goku - 
Death Beast - Sketchy comparisons because Reem, Diaz, and Hendo all competed for big leagues early in their careers anyway. Diaz and Hendo were both in the UFC; Reem and Hendo were in Pride.
Also, if Diaz didn't have that UFC experience he likely wouldn't have gotten his shot at Gomi, which really made him much more respected as a legitimate contender. That also led to the deals he got in EliteXC/SF, which led to his current UFC deal
As far as Lombard/Alvarez are concerned, they got more money because the UFC had to beat out Bellator's offer. Bellator isn't exactly the local circuit considering their exposure/backing.


you are so easily dismissing the comparisons without really providing a good argument...lets take each one and analyze it..



 



reem - never fought in the ufc, fought in outside orgs, got built up, signed huge deal in the UFC



diaz - fought in the ufc, but was making peanuts, builds up his name in other orgs, mostly against good matchups, gets a fat payday in the ufcv and loses



hendo - fought in the ufc wayyy back making peanuts, had big wins outside the ufc which led to his bigger paycheck now



lombard/alvarez - yes, the whole point is that if you fight in another league that wants you, the ufc will outbid them..but if you are only in the ufc, ufc doesnt have to outbid anyone


And you're dismissing my points too easily.
Diaz wouldn't have gotten the same opportunities if he hadn't been in the big leagues earlier in his career making peanuts. Same with Henderson and Overeem. These guys started in a big league early, got paid peanuts, and got bigger names for themselves by fighting the bigger names in the bigger orgs.
I see your point, but your examples are flawed is what I'm saying. Someone like Shields who wasn't in the UFC originally would be a better example but I don't really know what he's making so not sure if that hurts or helps your argument.

13

Orcus Knows MMA Better Than Goku - 
yellow wrkahlc - 
Orcus Knows MMA Better Than Goku - 
yellow wrkahlc - 


Totally. Just ask Rory, Jonny Bones, Michael McDonald...



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



 



...wait.



you mean the rory that is making $21K/$21K or the michael mcdonald that is making $8K/$8K?



 



and do you really think if Jon started up in Bellator or strikeforce he wouldnt be in a position to make the same amount of money now?



They'll get there eventually. 



Remember, they're young guys. Marketability comes into play, as well. If they keep winning in impressive fashion, their next contracts will be big money. 



 



You have a point, not arguing that.



roy nelson aint that young...gray maynard aint that young..he went on a big win streak for the ufc (8 wins) and hes fought for a title mutiple times...hes ranked higher than alvarez..yet alvarez makes MUCH more than him...



Don't even mention Roy Nelson. He's a pain in Dana's ass, and I would never use him as an example, given his  current 5-3 record. His pay is on par with his wins.



As for Gray, I love watching him fight (I'm a big fan), but come on, now. It's only now that he's actually becoming a fighter audiences wanna watch, and I credit that to his bouts with Edgar.



 



As I said above, marketability comes into play, along with the other factors. It's the reason why Gray had to wait so long for a title shot. It's the reason why Sonnen leapfrogged viable contenders for a shot at Jones. It's the reason Nick Diaz is still getting his title shot. Gotta have excitement AND marketability to your name if you wanna make the big money.

14

Death Beast - 
Orcus Knows MMA Better Than Goku - 
Death Beast - Sketchy comparisons because Reem, Diaz, and Hendo all competed for big leagues early in their careers anyway. Diaz and Hendo were both in the UFC; Reem and Hendo were in Pride.
Also, if Diaz didn't have that UFC experience he likely wouldn't have gotten his shot at Gomi, which really made him much more respected as a legitimate contender. That also led to the deals he got in EliteXC/SF, which led to his current UFC deal
As far as Lombard/Alvarez are concerned, they got more money because the UFC had to beat out Bellator's offer. Bellator isn't exactly the local circuit considering their exposure/backing.


you are so easily dismissing the comparisons without really providing a good argument...lets take each one and analyze it..



 



reem - never fought in the ufc, fought in outside orgs, got built up, signed huge deal in the UFC



diaz - fought in the ufc, but was making peanuts, builds up his name in other orgs, mostly against good matchups, gets a fat payday in the ufcv and loses



hendo - fought in the ufc wayyy back making peanuts, had big wins outside the ufc which led to his bigger paycheck now



lombard/alvarez - yes, the whole point is that if you fight in another league that wants you, the ufc will outbid them..but if you are only in the ufc, ufc doesnt have to outbid anyone


And you're dismissing my points too easily.
Diaz wouldn't have gotten the same opportunities if he hadn't been in the big leagues earlier in his career making peanuts. Same with Henderson and Overeem. These guys started in a big league early, got paid peanuts, and got bigger names for themselves by fighting the bigger names in the bigger orgs.
I see your point, but your examples are flawed is what I'm saying. Someone like Shields who wasn't in the UFC originally would be a better example but I don't really know what he's making so not sure if that hurts or helps your argument.


what do you mean diaz wouldnt have gotten the same opportunities? u dont think he had the talent to fight in strikeforce?and im not talking about big leauge chew..im talking about the UFC..that is the whole point..even in places like pride and dream you could fight lower level competition



the examples arent flawed at all...you are just skewing them in your mind...do the exercise yourself...find fighters who were big free agent signings (Iike sheidls) and see what they make in comparison to similarly ranked fighters...i dont know of any other objective way to do this analysis so why dont you enlighten me...

15
yellow wrkahlc - 
Orcus Knows MMA Better Than Goku - 
yellow wrkahlc - 
Orcus Knows MMA Better Than Goku - 
yellow wrkahlc - 

Totally. Just ask Rory, Jonny Bones, Michael McDonald...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...wait.


you mean the rory that is making $21K/$21K or the michael mcdonald that is making $8K/$8K?

 

and do you really think if Jon started up in Bellator or strikeforce he wouldnt be in a position to make the same amount of money now?


They'll get there eventually. 

Remember, they're young guys. Marketability comes into play, as well. If they keep winning in impressive fashion, their next contracts will be big money. 

 

You have a point, not arguing that.


roy nelson aint that young...gray maynard aint that young..he went on a big win streak for the ufc (8 wins) and hes fought for a title mutiple times...hes ranked higher than alvarez..yet alvarez makes MUCH more than him...


Don't even mention Roy Nelson. He's a pain in Dana's ass, and I would never use him as an example, given his  current 5-3 record. His pay is on par with his wins.

As for Gray, I love watching him fight (I'm a big fan), but come on, now. It's only now that he's actually becoming a fighter audiences wanna watch, and I credit that to his bouts with Edgar.

 

As I said above, marketability comes into play, along with the other factors. It's the reason why Gray had to wait so long for a title shot. It's the reason why Sonnen leapfrogged viable contenders for a shot at Jones. It's the reason Nick Diaz is still getting his title shot. Gotta have excitement AND marketability to your name if you wanna make the big money.

 

if u dont like gray or roy fine..go look up the countless of other examples of high ranked fighters who began fighting in the ufc early on and are not current or ex-champs...

 

 

stefan struve - #10 ranked HW (exciting fighter/on dana's good side) - $29K/$29K

nathan diaz - #5 ranked LW (exciting fighter/on dana's good side/JUST fought for the title/JUST got a new contract with UFC) - $50K in last fight (still much lower than Alvarez!)

16

Orcus Knows MMA Better Than Goku - 
Death Beast - 
Orcus Knows MMA Better Than Goku - 
Death Beast - Sketchy comparisons because Reem, Diaz, and Hendo all competed for big leagues early in their careers anyway. Diaz and Hendo were both in the UFC; Reem and Hendo were in Pride.
Also, if Diaz didn't have that UFC experience he likely wouldn't have gotten his shot at Gomi, which really made him much more respected as a legitimate contender. That also led to the deals he got in EliteXC/SF, which led to his current UFC deal
As far as Lombard/Alvarez are concerned, they got more money because the UFC had to beat out Bellator's offer. Bellator isn't exactly the local circuit considering their exposure/backing.


you are so easily dismissing the comparisons without really providing a good argument...lets take each one and analyze it..



 



reem - never fought in the ufc, fought in outside orgs, got built up, signed huge deal in the UFC



diaz - fought in the ufc, but was making peanuts, builds up his name in other orgs, mostly against good matchups, gets a fat payday in the ufcv and loses



hendo - fought in the ufc wayyy back making peanuts, had big wins outside the ufc which led to his bigger paycheck now



lombard/alvarez - yes, the whole point is that if you fight in another league that wants you, the ufc will outbid them..but if you are only in the ufc, ufc doesnt have to outbid anyone


And you're dismissing my points too easily.
Diaz wouldn't have gotten the same opportunities if he hadn't been in the big leagues earlier in his career making peanuts. Same with Henderson and Overeem. These guys started in a big league early, got paid peanuts, and got bigger names for themselves by fighting the bigger names in the bigger orgs.
I see your point, but your examples are flawed is what I'm saying. Someone like Shields who wasn't in the UFC originally would be a better example but I don't really know what he's making so not sure if that hurts or helps your argument.


what do you mean diaz wouldnt have gotten the same opportunities? u dont think he had the talent to fight in strikeforce?and im not talking about big leauge chew..im talking about the UFC..that is the whole point..even in places like pride and dream you could fight lower level competition



the examples arent flawed at all...you are just skewing them in your mind...do the exercise yourself...find fighters who were big free agent signings (Iike sheidls) and see what they make in comparison to similarly ranked fighters...i dont know of any other objective way to do this analysis so why dont you enlighten me...


Holy shit dude you are an angry little man. I don't have the time or inclination to do all that research. All I'm saying is that your examples are flawed when some of the people listed fought in the UFC early in their careers. Do you argue that or just say it doesn't count because it makes your point invalid in regards to those people?
You're the one with all the free time apparently to look all that nonsense up, I'm just killing time at work but I have better things to do than dig up fighter payrolls and post long winded threads along with longwinded arguments against anyone who offers any opposing thoughts.
Have fun going for your 30k posts before the end of the year.

17

"Holy shit dude you are an angry little man. I don't have the time or inclination to do all that research. All I'm saying is that your examples are flawed when some of the people listed fought in the UFC early in their careers. Do you argue that or just say it doesn't count because it makes your point invalid in regards to those people?
You're the one with all the free time apparently to look all that nonsense up, I'm just killing time at work but I have better things to do than dig up fighter payrolls and post long winded threads along with longwinded arguments against anyone who offers any opposing thoughts.
Have fun going for your 30k posts before the end of the year."

 

im just killing time at work too bud..but theres something cool i want to show you..its called google...its pretty neat..you can look shit up..its amazing actually...

 

and i never denied some of those people fought in the ufc, but their higher wages are not a result of them fighting in the ufc as evidenced by the other fighters i used as examples that did NOT fight in the ufc earlier in their careers

18

So go Google Shields and let me know what he's making, I'm not that bored but if you post it here I'd be interested to see it.
And what about the fact that these guys can get stuck in a contract with these lower tier orgs and never get to make that mainstream sponsorship money? Is that fact just not relevant either?
Did the WEC guys all get huge paydays because they fought in smaller orgs? The applicable ones anyway like Condit/Stann/Henderson etc.
What's a guy like Frankie making these days after working his way up?
Maybe this has more to do with how well you negotiate also. I remember BJ getting paid a relatively nice amount back when he started just because he wasn't willing to sign for peanuts. Same with Cain. Oh sorry, these examples don't count because they won titles right? Even though your OP was regarding guys with title aspirations.

19

Almost all of your examples include guys who were fighting in the top organizations from the beginning of their careers and established themselves that way.

In some situations, sure maybe it's better, but McDonald is probably on a path to bigger money faster winning the belt in the UFC at 21 years old than if he fought a couple times a year in Bellator until he was 25, and then you have to worry about if you can get out of Bellator. Part of the reason why these young guys get high ranked and well known so quick in the first place is because they are fighting in the UFC already.

Do you think Jones would be making more money if he signed with Strikeforce instead and was just now about to come over to the UFC? Phone Post

20
Orcus Knows MMA Better Than Goku - 
yellow wrkahlc - 
Orcus Knows MMA Better Than Goku - 
yellow wrkahlc - 
Orcus Knows MMA Better Than Goku - 
yellow wrkahlc - 

Totally. Just ask Rory, Jonny Bones, Michael McDonald...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...wait.


you mean the rory that is making $21K/$21K or the michael mcdonald that is making $8K/$8K?

 

and do you really think if Jon started up in Bellator or strikeforce he wouldnt be in a position to make the same amount of money now?


They'll get there eventually. 

Remember, they're young guys. Marketability comes into play, as well. If they keep winning in impressive fashion, their next contracts will be big money. 

 

You have a point, not arguing that.


roy nelson aint that young...gray maynard aint that young..he went on a big win streak for the ufc (8 wins) and hes fought for a title mutiple times...hes ranked higher than alvarez..yet alvarez makes MUCH more than him...


Don't even mention Roy Nelson. He's a pain in Dana's ass, and I would never use him as an example, given his  current 5-3 record. His pay is on par with his wins.

As for Gray, I love watching him fight (I'm a big fan), but come on, now. It's only now that he's actually becoming a fighter audiences wanna watch, and I credit that to his bouts with Edgar.

 

As I said above, marketability comes into play, along with the other factors. It's the reason why Gray had to wait so long for a title shot. It's the reason why Sonnen leapfrogged viable contenders for a shot at Jones. It's the reason Nick Diaz is still getting his title shot. Gotta have excitement AND marketability to your name if you wanna make the big money.

 

if u dont like gray or roy fine..go look up the countless of other examples of high ranked fighters who began fighting in the ufc early on and are not current or ex-champs...

 

 

stefan struve - #10 ranked HW (exciting fighter/on dana's good side) - $29K/$29K

nathan diaz - #5 ranked LW (exciting fighter/on dana's good side/JUST fought for the title/JUST got a new contract with UFC) - $50K in last fight (still much lower than Alvarez!)


These are bad examples as well. A fighter needs to stay consistent if they want to make the big bucks. You can't expect to hit six figures without marketability, win streaks, and overall stardom. 

Look at Dan Henderson (A fighter you used as an example). The man is making big money right now, and it's partly due to what his name brings to the table after all these years. You have a point, and you've made it, but it's more than just starting outside of the UFC.

Gotta have that marketability and win consistency, fren. For the young guys you listed still on the lower end of the pay scale, they'll hit six figures very soon if they keep at it. 

 

All of this takes time, no matter where they start their careers. That's just the way it goes.