More on In-fighting
"Heavy on the head"
On thing that you'll hear Jens or the other Miletich fighters talking about is "heavy on the head." This means putting a lot of weight on your opponents head in the clinch, getting his hips to move down and his ass out. "Heavy on the head" doesn't mean pulling down with your arms; you'll actually "sag" your hips downwards while locked up. This will help apply pressure.
"Popping, and pulling"
This is an in-fighting technique used by wrestlers. "But wrestlers don't in-fight," you say. They may not throw punches, but a good freestyle or greco-roman wrestler is physical and aggressive on the inside. They are constantly jacking, snapping, pulling, shucking, and popping their opponents to disrupt their balance and put them into awkward positions.
In-fighting is all about putting your opponent in these awkward positions in order to: 1)Establish control and 2)Neutralize his offense. Now lets go over some simple movements that will help disrupt your opponents balance, put him or her in awkward positions, and neutralize their offense. A key point to all of these movements is to keep your elbows tight to your body.
Popping
A good short "pop" can really put your opponent on their heels. It is not a punch. It is a short, explosive movement with your heel palm (you can also pop with the top of your elbow or your shoulder). The majority of the power in this movement comes from the snap in your wrist (or elbow or shoulder).
Pop your opponent on his or her shoulder or chest in order to turn them. Here is a sequence I like: slip inside, put your forehead on your opponents collarbone (the back of your head should be pressing into their jaw.) Position your arms inside of theirs. Pop 'em with your right hand (this will turn them square to you) and follow up with a left hook and right hand.
Sapping
This movement is exactly the opposite of popping. Cup your hand and use the entire thing as a hook. Power is not generated by a long pull of the arms, but by an explosive snap of the wrist. Good places to latch onto are behind an opponent's tricep or the top of their head. Use this technique in conjunction with a pop for a greater twisting effect. It is also good to snap someone in a direction that they want to go. If you are "heavy on the head," an opponent will sometimes try to back straight out of it, or go under your hand. Snap them downwards in order to strech them out or extend them (ole!). If they don't have to break their fall by catching themselves with their hands, they'll react by standing straight up. Fire away at will.
You might ask "why would I want to snap or pop when I can just punch?" There are two reasons for this: The snapping and popping are meant to be used when you run out of space to punch. It will open up space for you to punch. Secondly, these movements will help you set the trap. It will put your opponent in optimum position to eat punches.
This principle of popping can not only be used for the hands, but also for elbow shucks or even a shoulder punch. Put your opponent on their heels, get them moving backwards, and pour on the pressure. These tactics will distract, frustrate, and harry your opponent. Too many MMAist have separate modes: "grappling mode" and "striking mode." By using your grappling to set up strikes, you can confuse your opponent and keep them guessing.
I am interested in what other people have to say. I have had a lot of success as a in-fighter in a country that does not specialize in in-fighting, so don't take my words as the absolute truth. Get in the ring, spar, and see what works for you.
Let me know what you think.
fos
Buddie,
Once again mate you re-confirm the fact that you really should write a book.
Here is my observations on boxing in MMA.
I think the jab is pretty important yet neglected, Lidell has used the jab to good effect in setting up leg kicks. He did this well against Jeff Monson.
One of the best examples of a jab and its sheer dominance in conjunction with combo's was John Lewis fight against the Gracie trained fighter in UFC 22.
He was able to stop the take down as well as keep the pressure by utilising his reach and speed. Of course the fact that his opponent was over matched also played into it, but it was not only an exciting fight it also served to be illustrative and text book like.
In his fight with Carlos Newton, Pat Miletich got off a few double jabs which were able to put Newton on his back foot, and if memory serves I think Pat set up that head kick with a decent jab as well.
Being a huge fan of boxing and MMA I do like to see Boxing come through in MMA, and I have hence adapted my training to do this. As I am not blessed with freakish speed like Belfort I would have to adopt a more text book-workmanlike approach to it.
I think body punching is pretty important, Bas as Buddie pointed out above is a huge advocate of the liver punch.
I beleive a good tactic to try is when an opponent shoots in, if you are able to drop down for the sprawl, but try to angle your hips to one side as best as you can. Then from here with the arm that is closest to your hips throw some hard shots to their exposed body. While your other hand is locked around your opponent. This is just one thing I have been working on of late, it can also be applied in the standing clinch as well. Its a rather simplistic thing I suppose but its a good thing to practice.
I have not read the entire thread, as I am at a mates house, so I am no doubt repeating alot of what has been said...so if I am sorry guys.
Marco Ruas used good boxing against Pinduka in the Gracie in action tapes. Pinduka kept pressing for the clinch in true 80s BJJ fashion and Ruas would circle and throw some shots and ready for the sprawl. Even when they went down to the mat Ruas kept punching and really did a lot of damage.
Vernon White in his fight against Goes in Pride 9, showed good defence on the ground, he kept his hands up and pretty much bobbed and weaved with his back to the mat. Goes threw a lot of shots but landed very little.
In his 1948 re-match with Jersey Joe Walcott, Joe Louis threw an awesome series of punches that dropped Walcott. This sequence sticks in my mind as I think that such a combo, at that range could be used well against a BJJ type grappler who prefers the upper body type clinch. If you could perhaps sprawl and push them off, and as they press for the clinch again thrwo the tight combo at their often exposed chin. Off course this is a incidental example, brief sequences like this from boxing matches often stir sush thoughts.
I think that specific close range punch combo's are extremely beneficial to a MMAer. If they train to throw them immediately after the clinch has been broken. But do it so their punches are tight and their chin is tucked. Unlike a lot of MMAers who tend to go wild, turn their heads and close their eyes.
I will add more later when I get home. Sorry if I have repeated anything above.
These were just some brief thoughts I had. Ill add some better ones latter after ive sat down and thought about it better.
Later all
Kym
THANK YOU!!!
i have two words for people who dont think that boxing works in MMA. Robbie Lawler, enough said. this kida is one of the best fighters out there today. he has speed and power behind his punches and he's a south paw to boot. but he is nothing like young vitor. vitor had fast hands thats it he only knew how to do a jab cross. lawler uses combinations in everything he does. watch the lawler riley fight. youll see what i mean.
Yeah, thanks a lot. I've been working on adding boxing to my arsenal lately. I'll surely keep this in mind.
hi all,
It is my first time posting. I hope you guys can help me with this one. How is Strenght relevant to punching power????? some guys or quick yet not strong , at least not as much as some guys are. Does it become relevant during the follow through of punches? or when you need to absorb the impact? I hope my question is clear enough. I like that thread on boxing in MMA. I love both!!!!
Hey, I just wanted to say thanks to all who posted and contributed. This is really a great thread
Seek,
Right now I wouldn't focus too much on pure strength training, because I imagine that it might take away from the time you spend in the ring.
IMHO, power is over-rated. Accuracy, speed and timing are essential constituents to power. Although these attributes are harder to train than raw power, I think that they will get you much further than just being a hard hitter.
In the meantime, keep doing regular weightlifting and calesthenics in addition to your boxing workout and your power will come along.
fos
great thread, stuff like this is specialty forums at their best! thanks.
seek, Stickgrappler was nice enough to post some of my boxing conditioning threads on his sight. Maybe you can check them out and get some ideas on my views on strength and fitness for boxers. In the meantime, who wants more boxing in MMA stuff? Who has more to contribute? I'm gearing up for some more specific threads like this for example: using boxing vs. the BJJ player, vs. the Thai player and vs. the wrestler. These are the three most common styles you will run into in MMA. Again the focus won't be using pure boxing it'll be using boxing as an incorperation with other things and being able to get the most out of it.
I'll add my 2 cents just to keep the thread going for more of buddie's wisdom.
To effectively use boxing in MMA it is better to keep the combos short and straight. 2-3 punch combinations using jabs and crosses are probably the best way to attack. Constantly change your level and circle while picking your punches.
Another good tip I got from a fighter is to end combinations with an uppercut. For example 1-2 then uppercut. That way if he change levels for a takedown the uppercut is there to stop. You can also throw an uppercut as the guy shoots in. Henderson KO'ed Renzo with it and Gary Goodridge has done it as well.
great point about uppercuts. I talked to several fighters about the counters to shots. Obviously its good and essential to have a proficient sprawl. However, there are, and you should know, other counters to leg take downs. A proper shot should evade a knee. A proper double leg (and believe me I'm not wrestling expert) is about hip control not leg control. A polished wrestler will not shoot directly into your knees but rather beside them gaining a turning control of your hips forcing you down. One thing I like to drill is watching someone who is over persuant. A sloppy penetration step and a level change that is ill advised can spell disaster. If you see that they are plodding and overselling their shot, I'll give them my front leg, put my weight on my back leg and feint a jab. At this point they will undoubtedly shoot for the single. Here, their head will be moving to the inside as opposed to the outside of your legs. Slide out with stepping with your back foot and lauch a hard uppercut using your rear hand. Just as we are taught in boxing, if you are close enough to throw an uppercut with the rear hand once the head pops up, follow with a short left hook. This motion must be almost simultaneous. The pop up of the head should be exaggerated by his force downward. After you throw your left hook you have a perfect opportunity (should the rules provide) for you to grab the back of his head and throw a hard knee off of your back foot. If he somehow maintains his hold on your leg, do not knee, but rather push on his face directly backward and push your hips out and your legs back, making it difficult for him to maintain a grip on your legs. The beauty of uppercuts is that they are a relatively good set up for a knee from the opposing side. A smart fighter works the entire body. Try jab cross left uppercut right knee. Notice that every strike alternates the side of your body.
by the way Henderson's KO of Renzo was bizarre. I still haven't seen the shot that actually took him out but damn was his ass out! Looked like a forearm from a half uppercut half hook.
Buddie,
You're right the Henderson KO of Renzo wasn't a definitive clean uppercut. It took me 20 times of watching the slow mo replay just to see what caught Renzo. It was just as you said, a half uppercut/hook right on the chin. Didn't even look like Dan tried to hit him with it.
Another important tactic that I think already has been discussed within this thread is punching off the clinch break. This is very effective in MMA. Pulver, Miletich & Liddell are masters at it.
Do you think someone like Ruiz would do well in MMA if he had wrestling experience? I ask this question because he seems effective in establishing the clinch against good punchers. I would think this skill alone would make him good at takedowns providing he knew hosw to execute them.
Just like to add my two cents. Modern boxing is a gloved art and MMA is despite the minimal gloves is more like bare knuckle boxing. In BKB, throws were allowed, as were elbows and forearms. You realy don't see anyone in MMA punching their way into a clinch or throw. Modern boxing skills are great, but there is more to it in a MMA environment.
IMO, speed is over-rated. Most people are fast enough. Quickness is the issue. How fast can you get the punch off and how connected are your combinations. Most people wind up even when they think they aren't. Good mechanics can make anyone quicker.
Strength are power are two different thing. Power actually comes from looseness, not raw muscle power. While it is great to be a hard hitter, once again most people can hit hard enough. Hurting someone with a punch is a result of many things as has been pointed out. Once again, most people can be taught to hit harder with good mechanics. Hard enough and as hard as you can are two different things.
Some more on punchign off a clinch would be nice, i personally use punching off a popup out of the front headlock in sparring the most. Pop them up with the forearm and hit for the opposite in an overhand...works a charm.
Lemon
I agree I have found this to be good as well. You tie up for an upper body clinch, drive your elbow into their shoulder to create some space and wham, with your other hand you slam a palm or fist into their jaw-temple. It is a nice little set up for a level change or to help break the clinch.
When I was in high schoool I wrote a essay called
"street boxing" It was about using boxing in a total fight. I will look for it and post it.
Though I wrote it when I was a young lad, so It will probally be rather basic...ah well.
all the best
kym
I would like to contribute my (limited) experience.
I've never gone without a headgear, so it's all more
or less based on assumption of damage. First of all,
the jab works, as true as said before. I am a south-
paw using a regular stance, so I probably pack a bit
more punch than usual with my jab (still based on assumption, guys. I use the strong (right) leg as
a driving force and my strong arm as a piston).It takes a bit of balls to hover around kicking range with your meager step and jab as only weapon but I find that more often than not, it works. The jab is
so simple that used carefully the damage-to-commitment ratio is unbeatable. I spend more time in (punching) practice just jabbing and stepping than anything else.
Now, what makes the whole thing even more interesting is that my other main strategy is to use kicks, feigns
and some sort of roll or slip to skip jabbing and
power-punching range all together to establish a
dominant position on the inside (basically my head
controlling his head with the aid of my hands) and throw hooks and elbows and headbutts (not allowed in
the UFC, I know). My goal in using this inside position
is to snap the opponent down on his hands and knees.
From there, the world is my oyster. Knees, go-behind,
sprawl, ride, pancake or whatever. I personally like
to do a knee to the face, but I pretty much know I
sacrifice position for further damage.
The point of this is:
*The jab alone can take the fight out of your opponent
really quickly and set up ANY follow-up (1-2, Jab-
leg kick, jab-tie up, jab-double leg etc.)
*Inside fighting (someone in this thread called it
"dirty fighting", which I like a lot though it isn't
true) mixes very well indeed with grappling and
should (not could) be used to establish superior
position.
*Kicks, flicks and tricks are no substitutes for quick
and accurate hands (and elbows).
*You can't work the bag to much no matter how hard
you try.