Kai,
It is hard advance in Judo and not get the underlining concepts because, truth be told, they are deeply grafted to the techniques. One really can't effectively do any of the techniques of Judo without using the underlining concepts because they're what makes the techniques work in the first place.
Now...a person doesn't have to understand the underlining concepts on a deep intellectual level before they can effectively use them. In fact, in my opinion, a person can get by with only a superficial understanding (intellectually speaking) of the underlining concepts of Judo and STILL manage to do Judo well. This because the underlining concepts don't need to be understood that deeply or figured out competely in order to work. They work because they work. One doesn't "have to" figure them out.
BUT the reason why one doesn't have to figure them out or understand them indethly is because they are APART of the technique. When one properly learns the technique one , at the same time, gets the underlining concepts.
BUT note I said the underlining concepts are grafted to the techniques. It would very hard to get any understanding, whether superficial or indepth, of the underlining concepts without the techniques. The two go together. So if you want the underlining concepts, at least in a tangible way, then you must first get them through the technique. And like I said before the underlining concepts are best discovered through the natural process of easy to hard techniques/movements; basic to advance movements/techniques.
In my personal experience I seem to always learn something more about the underlining principles/concept of a given technique when I go back to through the natural progression and study a technique first in its simplest, easiest and most basic form.
For example I learned about the concept or principle of Hiji No Ri or how the body force one generates is directed through their elbow/forearm from the basic version of Morote Seoi Nage. It wuld have been hard for me to understand that in a TANGIBLE without SEEING it in the basic form of Morote Seoi nage. Someone could have explained it to me but it means more if I see and feel it.
MG: But what I am saying is: You have to see the fundamental concept in a technique, but if you don't understand how those fundamentals apply across groups of techniques, you will stunt your learning of the art AND the technique.
Because you will not know what to really concentrate on during the application of the technique.
Kai,
Yes and no. I mean, I see what you're saying and in way you're right BUT at the same time wrong. I know that isn't possible. Let me say it like this. Well...first let me say that I am expressing my opinion, my view, so it isn't the gospel truth but rather my understanding of the matter. And since I am human, thus limited in my understanding, I certain can be wrong.
With that said, I think you're right in one sense but wrong in another sense. I do think a person's lack of full understanding of a concept can stunt or hinder learning. BUT in regards to physical activities one doesn't have to understand a concept in a deep intellectual way in order to effectively use and apply it. The reason for this, in regards to physical activities, is the underlining principles/concepts behind the physical activity are essentially logical and make sense when demostrated even in the simplest form.
Most, if not all, concepts (and principles) in Judo follow natural law and are intuitive. Furthermore , because they are intuitive it doesn't take much apply them, or at least see their application, in situations apart from the situation in which one initially learned them. For example it is simple logic that you can pull a person off balance, if he is pushing into you, by simply giving into his force. You can even guide where he falls by simply moving your body this or that way as you pull him in the moment he pushes you. Once you KNOW how a concept/principle works and see it in action then it doesn't take much to see it work in other situations.
The same can be said of Hiji No Ri, which is focusing the force one generates through the elbow/forearm. Once I learned about that principle and once I saw and felt it for myself I was able to apply to other throws. I was also able to SEE it applied in other throws by experience Judokas. The principle/concept is logical and intuitive.
Now being able to master it and consistently do it is another story. That comes from practice. But being able to understand, at least enough to apply it in different situations isn't that hard.
There are other concepts/principles of Judo which are intuitive and really don't take much to understand and see in other techniques once one is shown. Like the difference between a sweep where the opponent's momentum is continued pass his base of support (think de-ashi barai) and a sweep where part of the opponent's momentum is blocked and part of it is continued over his base of support (think Sasae Tsurikomi ashi). Once a person understands that concept he or she can easily find and see it in other throws.
I agree: this really IS a good thread...
BUT I think it could be a great thread if we could just find a way to somehow include a little bit MORE Judo terminology.
m.g.
Nice post. You said it much better than I could have done but I have pretty much come to some of the same conclusions that you are stating.
If we say that a person MUST have certain fundamentals for he or she to properly understand BJJ, then I say, "Which instructors do NOT understand that or teach that?" I have never met one. They may stress certain things more than others but who is to say who is right or wrong about that?
I doubt that Eddie Bravo teaches HIS game without teaching those fundamentals: Position, base, posture, etc. etc... make your own list.
I know Marcelo understands and teaches those fudamentals.
Now if you are talking about fundamental "techniques" then again that seems to be a matter of taste. Is closed guard more fundamental than butterfly? Maybe. But I have a feeling that most instructors teach closed guard, butterfly, spider, etc.
So if they teach inverted guard which cardinal rule of BJJ have they broken?
So that means it is...what...a matter of progression? You MUST teach closed guard before inverted guard because that is the way it is done?
And then we have the whole point that this post is about:
Teaching YOUR game vs the Art.
Well if my premise is correct that all instructors probably teach the fundamentals of postioning, base, posture etc. and that the fundamental techniques are really more about when you introduce certain techniques, then I think teaching YOUR game is really just a matter of strategy more than anything else.
And the whole argument about the best way of teaching to get the best results never made any sense to me anyway. Different people need different things, different people learn different ways.
I know people who want to learn a concept about why something works, and I know people who need to know where the thumb goes everytime they grip the gi, arm, pant leg or knee.
See, I told you you could say it better than me.
Leo Kirby,
Let me say this about so-called fundamental techniques. Fundamental techniques in my opinion are techniques which demostrate or illustrate important principles/concepts in the simpliest way.
I think we all agree that principles and concepts need techniques in order to be taught. I mean, sure principle/concepts can be taught apart from physical techniques BUT they will be very abstract and hard to understand. But if one attaches them to techniques then what was once abstract now becomes tangible. Through a technique one can see and even feel the principles/concepts.
Now I talked before about how things are best introduced through the natural progression of easy to hard, simple to complex, general to specific etc. Well...some principles and concepts are easier to understand, easier to DO, and even easier to practice when introduce/taught in a technique or movement that is relatively simple. A person can then progress to harder, more complex, and even more specific variations and application of the principle/concept in more advance techniques AFTER mastering it in a more simpler technique.
I guarantee some people will have a harder time not only receiving/understanding certain principles/concepts but more importantly apply them BECAUSE they decided to skip the natural progression and try to learn the principle/concept in techniques which were simply to advance for them to DO instead of learning them in a technique that easier for them to handle.
See, that was the genius of Jigoro Kano the founder of Judo and even Helio the father of Bjj. They knew that certain principles/concept are better received/understood and again more importantly applied and performed when learned in a relatively simple technique. But alot of people don't follow their method of teaching.
When people understand the idea of natural progression and how certain are best taught in a certain way they'll appreciate why certain instructors, especially old school instructors, taught in a certain way.
Now keep in mind there is a thing called a learning curve. This learning curve will enable one to learn at a faster pace the others. Some people don't have to strictly follow the natural learning progression as other because they have a great level of coordination, body control, physical experience. In other words while some people may have to spend more time on the lower end of the progression in order to actually be able to DO the physical movements some people are to skip to higher rungs on the ladder because they simply move and control their bodies better.
Excellent points, m.g. Im very impressed!
I agree with andre.
I started out wanting to disagree with some of what you said, but your last paragraph pretty much answered my arguments on that issue.
Great post.