Facts about BJ Penn?
He was largely responsible for the cancellation of the entire 155 weight class in 2003.
His last win at 170 was in 2004.
He was completely demolished in his last fight. He lost in the most pathetic way possible by quitting like a complete pussy between rounds.
He has defended the 155 belt exactly ONCE!!!
"Point is, BJ is the only one who pushes to get out of his comfort zone and to test himself at the highest level. Until I see the majority of fighters do the same, I would say BJ is unique in that regard."
1) Most fighters are depending on fighting to make their living, pay their bills, support their family. So they're going to have a little more invested in preserving their records and being smart about what fights to pursue. BJ has the luxury of being able to do whatever he thinks might be fun.
2) Dan Henderson has spent most of his career fighting in a weight class above his natural one, and in fact won a stacked open-weight tournament including some of the best fighters two weight classes above him; and in addition to that open-weight tourney has won titles in two other divisions; he has fought many of the best in the world at 205. Kondo has also made a career of fighting much bigger guys, as, of course, did Sakuraba. And of course it could be argued that Fedor has spent his entire career fighting above his "natural" weight, as he is much softer at HW than BJ was at welter.
orcus - "Point is, BJ is the only one who pushes to get out of his comfort zone and to test himself at the highest level. Until I see the majority of fighters do the same, I would say BJ is unique in that regard."
1) Most fighters are depending on fighting to make their living, pay their bills, support their family. So they're going to have a little more invested in preserving their records and being smart about what fights to pursue. BJ has the luxury of being able to do whatever he thinks might be fun.
2) Dan Henderson has spent most of his career fighting in a weight class above his natural one, and in fact won a stacked open-weight tournament including some of the best fighters two weight classes above him; and in addition to that open-weight tourney has won titles in two other divisions; he has fought many of the best in the world at 205. Kondo has also made a career of fighting much bigger guys, as, of course, did Sakuraba. And of course it could be argued that Fedor has spent his entire career fighting above his "natural" weight, as he is much softer at HW than BJ was at welter.
You're right, I spoke too fast there. BJ isn't the only one who fights outside his natural weight.
By the way, who did Dan Henderson beat who was 2 classes above him (besides Nog in Rings)? Just curious ...
Also, I would be hesitant to conclude that Dan's natural weight is at 185, as he looks a lot more in shape at 205 than BJ is at 170.
As for BJ's privileged life, I'm not sure if I buy that. A lot of respected athletes come from or have money. In any case, I can't really make arguments based on assumptions regarding his family, financial background, or his values.
But you raise good points about Henderson, Saku, and Fedor. Not bad company in my opinion. What they all have in common is that they are or at one time have been considered in the P4P running in part for that very reason. Why should BJ be treated any differently?
I think it's safe to say that most champions would do okay in the next higher weight class. Maybe not become reigning champ there, but do at least as well as BJ has at WW, ie, possibly beat the champ (depending on style matchups), and at the very least make some noise.
"By the way, who did Dan Henderson beat who was 2 classes above him (besides Nog in Rings)? Just curious ..."
Nogueira, Gilbert Yvel, and I think Babalu was a heavy at the time as well (he weighed 242 when he fought Fedor).
"What they all have in common is that they are or at one time have been considered in the P4P running in part for that very reason. Why should BJ be treated any differently?"
Fedor and Sak both had incredible win streaks; they dominated everyone; Dan has had amazing successes way above his weight and was very competitive for years above his weight against some of the best in the world. BJ is a guy who has never strung together more than three wins in a row in his life, and other than the win over Hughes (who stopped him in the rematch), his biggest accomplishment outside his weight was not getting wrecked by a fat, bored Lyoto. At lightweight his accomplishments are no more impressive than a number of other LWs.
"I think it's safe to say that most champions would do okay in the next higher weight class. Maybe not become reigning champ there, but do at least as well as BJ has at WW, ie, possibly beat the champ (depending on style matchups), and at the very least make some noise."
Exactly. A great fighter is a great fighter and 10-15lb isn't going to be the difference between being among the best in the world and being crap. Diego is a lightweight now and we already know he can hang with the best at 170; LW Sherk went 30-2 at 170 and was certainly competitive with Hughes; Henderson, Franklin, Anderson, Rashad, and many more have shown they can be very competitive at multiple weights; etc. Anderson made his mark winning the Shooto 165 title -- only 10lb above BJ's weight class -- and I think most of us would agree he would have a good chance against any 205er in the world and probably many heavies.
"Exactly. A great fighter is a great fighter and 10-15lb isn't going to be the difference between being among the best in the world and being crap. Diego is a lightweight now and we already know he can hang with the best at 170; LW Sherk went 30-2 at 170 and was certainly competitive with Hughes; Henderson, Franklin, Anderson, Rashad, and many more have shown they can be very competitive at multiple weights; etc. Anderson made his mark winning the Shooto 165 title -- only 10lb above BJ's weight class -- and I think most of us would agree he would have a good chance against any 205er in the world and probably many heavies."
Every fighter you mentioned moved DOWN a weight class. Figuring out how to cut 15 lbs effectively is not as impressive as moving up to the next weight class, because in moving down, you're probably inflated at the night of the fight. On the other hand, moving up, you are probably STILL fighting people 15-20 lbs heavier on game day.
I agree that Anderson would do well at 205. He is a pretty big middleweight as well, and it was amazing that he could fight Sakurai at 170. Again, Anderson wasn't a natural 170 that moved up to 185. He was most likely a 185'er moving down.
As far as BJ's accomplishments, I feel that you are mischaracterizing them a bit. But for the draw with Uno (which I think he won), he would've had a 7 fight winning streak, 2 of which were at 170 (Matt Hughes being one of them). With the draw, it would count as a 4 fight streak, only losing to Machida at heavyweight. And the fat, bored Machida gave Franklin his first loss.
Also, I think his lightweight accomplishments are often overlooked b/c of his fights at higher weights. First, his first 3 fights included absolute decimations of 2 of the top LW's at the time. Din Thomas was the last guy who beat Jens Pulver, who at the time, was the most dominant guy at LW. Uno was the man at the time (still is), and BJ beat him in a few seconds. That fight alone stands out as a huge accomplishment at LW. In his 5 round fight with Pulver, he was still impressive in defeat.
What followed was a string of lackluster victories, I admit. But he was revitalized in his fight with Gomi whose only loss was a decision to Hansen at the time. Up to that point, no one had handled Gomi the way BJ did.
Fast forward to his next LW fight, he avenged his loss to Pulver. Then, he took down the top two LW's at the time, Stevenson, followed by a dominant performance against Sherk. Sherk at LW is obviously no joke, beating the #1 contender in Kenflo, Tyson Griffin, Hermes Franca. The only person I've seen dominate Sherk more is GSP.
Like him or not BJ accomplished alot of great things...
Kipling, you completely Red Herring-ed my question. I said: "Name "all the people" he has beat in different weight classes and then name the one's he has lost to in different weight classes and then total them. Do us that favor, OK? "
And then you proceeded to break down his career? FACT: BJ is 4-4 outside his weight class. His win over 13-6 Renzo and 6-3 Rodrigo are hardly earth shattering. His win over Hughes, yes. You guys honestly exhibit all the qualities of a cult leader and it's followers. Look it up. Denial, circular reasoning, leader can do no wrong and is deified, etc.
dgjj808 - Like him or not BJ accomplished alot of great things...
Name them please. Is it winning a belt in 2 weight classes with only one title defense between the two? If it's so great what do you think of fighters who have the belts and actually defended it more than once? They are greater with your logic right?
BJ Penn has always been WAY OVER-RATED.
He's just as much a cheater as GSP if you want to go in that direction with his eye-poking.
But over-rated never the less.
Plus his record is NOT impressiv AT ALL if that's the only thing someone is looking at.
13-5-1
goldenboyart - BJ Penn has always been WAY OVER-RATED.Don't forget the fence grabbing and calling off fights before the heferee has so you don't have to go into more rounds and tax your cardio.
He's just as much a cheater as GSP if you want to go in that direction with his eye-poking.
But over-rated never the less.
Plus his record is NOT impressiv AT ALL if that's the only thing someone is looking at.
13-5-1
Nate, I asked him this:
"Name "all the people" he has beat in different weight classes and then name the one's he has lost to in different weight classes and then total them. Do us that favor, OK? "
He didn't do that. The answer would have looked like this:
4 losses: Lyoto Machida, Matt Hughes, & GSPx2
4 wins: Renzo Gracie, Rodrigo Gracie, Matt Hughes, & Duane Ludwig
4-4 Overall.
That's it. The Red Herring comes in to all the BS added like you even alluded to "...plus added a little more to his post." He add a LOT more. BJ cult followers always follow up FACTS with reasoning to explain why the facts don't matter if it doesn't make BJ look better and then alter them in any fashion to make him look better. That's the "bit of extra info" that is definitely too much for me. You are correct.
Sorry but wins over Renzo, Duane, and Rodrigo don't make you PFP. Only his win over Matt Hughes 5 YEARS AGO could count.
Ausgepicht - Kipling, you completely Red Herring-ed my question. I said: "Name "all the people" he has beat in different weight classes and then name the one's he has lost to in different weight classes and then total them. Do us that favor, OK? "And then you proceeded to break down his career? FACT: BJ is 4-4 outside his weight class. His win over 13-6 Renzo and 6-3 Rodrigo are hardly earth shattering. His win over Hughes, yes. You guys honestly exhibit all the qualities of a cult leader and it's followers. Look it up. Denial, circular reasoning, leader can do no wrong and is deified, etc.
I think you posted something along the lines of people being crazy to consider BJ P4P, etc. The extra facts were put in to distinguish him from other P4P contenders and explain why it is not that crazy to consider him with other P4P contenders.
So yeah, the extra facts were actually on point and directly addressed your previous post, so it wasn't a red herring. Do you think I'm not allowed to post extra statistics in a thread called "facts about BJ" which has sparked a debate about the significance of his career accomplishments?
Actually, the fact that you responded to my post by calling it a "red herring" is a "red herring." :)
kipling200 - [
So yeah, the extra facts were actually on point and directly addressed your previous post, so it wasn't a red herring. Do you think I'm not allowed to post extra statistics in a thread called "facts about BJ" which has sparked a debate about the significance of his career accomplishments?
Actually, the fact that you responded to my post by calling it a "red herring" is a "red herring." :)
You added "facts" such as "I think he won", "looked good in defeat", etc, which aren't so much facts as they are opinions.
nate787 - So I'm right, you don't know what it is.So now I have to explain Red Herring to you because you have poor reading comprehension. When you don't answer a question directly but respond with unrelated material like he did, youget your Red Herring. Get it?
"Too much for you" doesn't = Red Herring. He answered your question, then elaborated why he thought that made him a p4p contender. That's an opinion, just like you gave yours on why you thought BJ wasn't. Just like all P4P rankings are. Get off your high horse.
I NEVER said it was a matter of degree...that the amount he followed up with was the Red Herring. What grade are you in? Serious question. Did you just discover Fallacies on Wiki or something?
kipling200 -LOL...read Hardcharger's comment.Ausgepicht - Kipling, you completely Red Herring-ed my question. I said: "Name "all the people" he has beat in different weight classes and then name the one's he has lost to in different weight classes and then total them. Do us that favor, OK? "And then you proceeded to break down his career? FACT: BJ is 4-4 outside his weight class. His win over 13-6 Renzo and 6-3 Rodrigo are hardly earth shattering. His win over Hughes, yes. You guys honestly exhibit all the qualities of a cult leader and it's followers. Look it up. Denial, circular reasoning, leader can do no wrong and is deified, etc.
I think you posted something along the lines of people being crazy to consider BJ P4P, etc. The extra facts were put in to distinguish him from other P4P contenders and explain why it is not that crazy to consider him with other P4P contenders.
So yeah, the extra facts were actually on point and directly addressed your previous post, so it wasn't a red herring. Do you think I'm not allowed to post extra statistics in a thread called "facts about BJ" which has sparked a debate about the significance of his career accomplishments?
Actually, the fact that you responded to my post by calling it a "red herring" is a "red herring." :)
Extra statistics? Facts? LMFAO!!! Like:
"From what I see...."
"His only real loss at 155 was from a close fight with Pulver early in his career (I think this was his 4th fight?)" (His 4th fight was a loss...it doesn't really count!!! That's an awesome stat and fact!)
"...had competitive fights with GSP (first fight) and Machida...(and looked good in his loss absent the rib injury), and second time against #1 ranked GSP. "(Those excuses..er I mean statistics and facts....mean he really won!)
"that one of BJ's greatest accomplishments is his willingness to risk his record against the #1-#2 fighters at a higher weight class."
WOW. That is an awesome statistic! Those 4 losses are quite the accomplishment! Now THAT is a statistic.
Now so you and Mongol boy (THAT is an Ad Hominem attack BTW) can learn what a Red herring is:
"GSP's record above 170 is 0-0. Anderson Silva's record above 170 is 1-0 (against Irvin). Fedor would probably be 2-0 or 3-0 if there was a super-heavyweight class."
That's a fish if I ever saw one. Why don't you guys revisit the Wiki article on Red Herrings and come back in a few weeks when it sinks in?
orcus -
Fedor and Sak both had incredible win streaks; they dominated everyone; Dan has had amazing successes way above his weight and was very competitive for years above his weight against some of the best in the world. BJ is a guy who has never strung together more than three wins in a row in his life, and other than the win over Hughes (who stopped him in the rematch), his biggest accomplishment outside his weight was not getting wrecked by a fat, bored Lyoto. At lightweight his accomplishments are no more impressive than a number of other LWs.
The Sak, Fedor, Henderson comparison is intriguing to me. With the exception of Fedor, I think the positives about BJ's career very much parallel Saku and Henderson's respective careers.
When you look at long string of victories, you have to look at who they fought. Dan's longest string of victories was at the beginning of his career. A lot of guys he fought didn't even records at that point really. Other than that early string of victories, his streaks are really limited to 4 or less. Not a knock on Dan, b/c he fights at the top level obviously, and like you said, often above his weight.
Sakuraba's longest streak started from his win over Vitor and ended with his loss to Igor. One of the victories was the controversial win over Mezger. Saku was famous for being the Gracie Hunter. But how many Gracies did he fight over his weight? If you look at the majority of Saku's losses, they were against light heavies -- Silva 3x, Arona, Little Nog ... there are exceptions of course: Rampage, Randleman. But he has losses from Nino, Tamura, etc. None of these losses detract from his legacy. But at the time of his P4P contention, he hadn't lost 3x to Silva yet and was fighting a lot of Gracies that were close if not lower than his weight.
In sum, the careers of both Dan and Saku can both be picked apart by mischaracterizing and/or emphasizing only certain negative aspects. Doesn't mean people were crazy to consider them P4P at one time. When looking at their careers, it is the TOTALITY that gives them greatness.
I was referring to the career breakdown that I gave in addition to his record at higher weights. (note the dashes that separate my post)
I originally thought that was what Augs was referring to, but I admit: I gave extra statistics + opinions.
So I'm unclear as to what I'm supposed to do on this thread. I thought I was supposed to give arguments based on
statistics. Isn't that what everyone else is doing?
Augs, your post about the difference between statistics vs. facts is a red herring. We should be discussing BJ's career right?
All this talk of fish is making me hungry.
We can direct the debate in any direction you want. I am confident that the facts show BJ to be overrated and his fans to exhibit ll the symptoms of a religious cult. I'll go anywhere, since I have facts and stats on my side and not opinions and circular reasoning.
Just as I thought Nate. Ignoring me proving you wrong won't make it go away. Using Ad Hominem attacks won't make it go away either. Stick to the argument please.