The Gracies and Multiple Attackers

Underground
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I was at a Royce seminar once and the subject of multiple attackers came up.  He said look, imagine you are fighting someone exactly like you, then that other you has a friend.  It's going to be pretty difficult to beat yourself and someone else. 

For all of the people that advocate specialized multiple attacker training how many really have 1 guy go against 2 or more people with MMA rules?  That's about as close as we can come to streetfighting in a realtively safe environment and would really show what would happen to that individual.  Would that guy really be able to knock out both guys without being taken to the ground?  Can you reproduce those same results with different indivuals with different training experience and athleticism? 

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Some of you are posting about the impossibility of dealing with mulitple attackers. The thing is though, its been done, many many times. And Royce Gracie may not be the best person to ask this particular question to.

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The multiple attacker scenario is not a good one to be sure, but to not train for it is irresponsible if real world self-defense is your goal.

Consider the knife, you are absolutely at a disadvantage, so do you NOT train for it? Dan Inosanto once said, "All the knife training I give you may only give you one chance out of ten to survive, but it's better than none." The same can be said for multiple attackers. Don't train for it or expect it and you may have no chance at all.

Avoidance and intelligence is your best defence, of course, but sometimes fate will have it's way with you. If you do have to face multiple attackers you may end up wishing that you had prepared for it to begin with.

It may be your personal choice to carry a weapon or self-defence device such as a chemical spray. Knives, guns, batons, stun devices, etc. are all good options, but you may also escalate a situation to a far worse one than it was originally. You have to make that judgement call for yourself.

If you do have to fight multiple attackers and do it unarmed, you have to fight like your life depends on it. It vary well may. A group of two or more can easily kill you and not even intend to. The mob mentality can make it an even bigger risk, especially when you fight back. Don't take it that seriously and you may pay dearly for it. Your choice.

Rickson once wrote an editorial for either BB mag or IKF, I don't remember. What I do remember is that he stated that he would never want to go to the ground in a multiple attacker situation. He said that he would keep moving, throwing, punches, kicks, elbows, etc. and keep them off of him.

As was stated earlier by others, your attackers intent is definitely a factor. If you are well trained you will usually have a decided advantage over the average person. Once they see that you can fight, many will back off and decide that they don't want to fight that bad. Many are "tough guys" as long as they think they can intimidate or win easily. Once they realize that you can hurt them, their goal will soon change.

I've been in a few multiple attacker situations. Most of these were two or more guys that were confrontational until they realized that I was willing to fight. A few situations were fights-to-be until you hit the first guy. I've been in one 4 on 20-25 situation. Not cool. Luckily, they either didn't want to fight that bad, couldn't or were just to drunk. Either way, we were lucky enough to walk away from it.

If you are able to, you want to keeping moving, sectoring and striking so that you only face one man at a time and don't allow the others to flank you. If you are surrounded, you now have the "advantage" of striking in all directions. You always seek to break out of the circle if possible and work your flanking again. In the circle, using hair and clothing can also help. Jerking an opponent to the ground or into his buddies momentarily gives you openings or at least stops them from trying to hit you on that side. Pushing, shoving, pulling, jerking all while striking and moving and trying to bust out of the circle is how it goes on the inside.

We work drills in the gym for these scenerios to give the students some experience at this. NOTHING kicks your ass worse. Nothing. If these drills serve no other purpose, they teach the student how much they DO NOT want to fight multiple attackers.

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good post JKDFighter! I especially like that Guru Dan quote - thats how I felt when I taught some jiujitsu to girls at this college summer program - it may increase their chances to survive only a little bit (since I only taught a few sessions) but it was better than nothing and it at least gave them a fighting chance.

Once my brother and his friend attacked me at the same time. They were both pretty green whitebelts in bjj and I was a bluebelt. It was tough as hell but eventually I choked them both out. Lesson being - you don't want to be on the ground in a multiple attacker situation and striking can help a lot.

I remember a story about Rickson that my bjj brownbelt friend (free plug: www.chattanoogajiujitsu.com) told me about. Rickson was like 12 at the time and got into a fight with 2 kids who were around 17,18 who thought they would make a name for themselves on his way to school since his last name was Gracie and he was Helio's son. He would take one down and begin to choke him out then the other one would kick him in the head and he would have to let go of the choke, takedown the other one, choke him, and then get kicked in the head again. He finally managed to choke both of them out but he said it was the hardest fight he ever had.

OK that is all, I will tell you the story when I stupid enough to almost get into a fight with me and 2 friends and literally about 20 kids from a rival school in highschool. Luckily a fight was narrowly averted but I would have been badly beat up for sure

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ttt for Bull in chinashop

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I don't think beating multiple attackers is impossible but you better look at how you train for it.  Sure, doing drills may help but the only real way to know if it's going to work  (as with any combat sport) is to spar.  So I ask the question again.  How many guys doing mutlitple attackers scenarios have 2 guys spar with 1 in all out MMA rules?  Sure, I've grappled with a couple white belts at the same time and choked them but grappling ain't street fighting. If I get jumped by 2 guys I'm going to stick some body with my knife and run. I've been doing MA for 10 years and BJJ for 6 but taking out 2 guys in the street with bad intentions is a tough test for anyone. 

 

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Rodney -
I agree with much of what you posted.

"Sure, I've grappled with a couple white belts at the same time and choked them but grappling ain't street fighting" - not sure if you were refering to my post here but I was making the point how hard it was and how you DON'T want to be on the ground grappling in a multiple attacker situation but on your feet mobile and striking (or using your blade as you posted and running. I don't think this is overly extreme, as some may, since I really avoid fights, don't drink - which alone probably gets me out of a lot of trouble, try to avoid hanging around people who are prone to get into fights, bad places, etc. I guess what I'm saying is that if I take all these precautionary measures, and I still actually get into a fight with mulitple attackers, it is likely that I was attacked by people with very bad intentions and I feel I have the right to respond accordingly).

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Rodney,

Sparring is just one of the many drills to help you develop your skills. However, I'm here to tell you that the majority of people out there aren't going to fight you like trained MMA athletes. So, your results are most likely going to be different than in the street. If you can handle yourself decently against trained fighters, though, then you'll do waaaaay more than okay against the average person. The average guy isn't going to know to take you down or to know how. The average guy doesn't even know how to hit, much less be covered when he does. The average guy isn't used to being really hit and then conditioned to continue when he is. The average guy makes pretty much every textbook mistake that you train for if you are training properly.

You have to mix up sparring with scenario training so that your partners, students, or whoever is attacking you like the common street type attacks. If you aren't familiar with what that is, there are many videos out there that show actual street fights between all different types of fighters. Most people come at you swinging wildly and do no sort of tackles, takedowns or clinch. The most common thing even close is the common headlock. Other than that, it's punching, punching and more punching for the majority of fights.

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good points JKDFIGHTER

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"Rickson once wrote an editorial for either BB mag or IKF, I don't remember. What I do remember is that he stated that he would never want to go to the ground in a multiple attacker situation. He said that he would keep moving, throwing, punches, kicks, elbows, etc. and keep them off of him."

One of my favorite stories about Rickson from "The Gracie Way" is when he and Royler get attacked by a surfer gang on the beach. Rickson runs away...and then comes back with a big wooden post as big as he was, and starts cleaning people's clocks with it. Victory for Jiu-jitsu!!

That other story about him on the playground as a kid is a good one too.

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JKDFIGHTER, while I agree with you that most of the time the street thug isn't some trained fighter I don't think you can say you have an answer to multiple attackers if you are just doing drills with people simulating a couple of wild haymakers.  It's not realistic enough.  I think you really need to spar like you do 1 on 1 to feel the pressure of a real conflict.

That's what I always respected about Royce's (and most Gracies, Sperry, etc) stance is.  They don't make claims that 1 guy can take out a street gang becuase the reality of fighting is that anything can happen and 2 on 1 odds are pretty bad. 

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Rodney,

You're arguing a moot point. I don't know if you aren't reading my posts well enough or not. I said that both methods are good, meaning that I advise both. People don't fight like MMA. Your training partners can fight back full force, with full resistance and still simulate different types of fighters. Never once did I say to have someone just throw a couple of haymakers.

Simply look at real fights and have your partners SOMETIMES isolate just those methods of attacks. You should mix up the types of fighters that you have to deal with in situations like this so that you can adapt differently. If you can't understand what I'm trying to tell you, then never mind.

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I get what your saying I think we just disagree.  Most of the fights I've seen look a lot like MMA.  Sure they may not hit a perfect double leg or hip throw but a lot of fights look pretty close just with poor technique.  Anyway no need to beat a dead horse I just found this to be an interesting topic to discuss. Good health and good training. 

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"Train the way you fight" "Fight the way you train"

Those words insprired me to say fuck the overtime at work and go back to training 4 to 5 days a week.