The NEXT step Aliveness plus

"KWJ, I'd like to hear your $.02"

*smiling, sitting back in corner rubbing chin and nodding gently*

LOL at KWJ! He ain't got $0.02 to spare - he used up his $2.00 allowance on the chi sao thread! That was Good stuff! Instead of saying "Nice energy drill or Nice chi sao!" He had to go and say what was on his mind and blew his wad. Carry on please ;)


so what you are saying is that you pak sao the cross (that being the usual rear hand thrown behind a jab). That is straight out of boxing and is plainly called a brush by. Let's not make these things any more convoluted then they have to be. And if you are speaking more of pushing the cross down then to the side, I would hate to see what happens when the guy feignts (sp?) the rear hand and you reach to push something down that isn't there and you get blasted. Basic tennent of boxing you never push down punches or reach for hands that are not there. It will get you KTFO!

Please don't regard my previous post as a disagreement. I'm just sharing my experiences and training while asking a few questions that popped into my head.

i spent a lot of time with BJJ (since '97) and
took wrestling privates for a year and really wish I did wrestling longer. The best way to deal with takedowns is to learn good ones yourself and their counters. I am a fan of WC and JF style dissloves and deflections as well, especially when taught out of a boxing mode.

"Any way, this is one of my pet peeves. People like to do all the neat and cool stuff and look really good doing it. They like to impress with fancy techniques and talk about all of these theories, yet they still can't fight their way out of a wet paper sack."

Man you hit the nail on the head.

Great post and great responses...

*Whines* I used to have a good one two, until I blew my right shoulder, now I have to re learn the right cross all over again.

someone mentioned Tyson on the forum and his use of the peek a boo tactics..following on from this..any of you guys got to explore jail house rock or 52 method...this seesm to have some interesting experience learnt tactics and movments..from wha some people have seems to bear similarity with aspects of silat, boxing and elements from capoeira...

That is true and is neither here nor there. Most all of us on here consider ourselves JKDers so that is the population with which I am dealing. Sure there is plenty of crap out there but I don't even begin to consider it all because I would go crazy and even get angrier. It upsets me when people call themselves JKD instructers and can't do these things properly. They are doing a huge diservice to themselves and to their students.

what Ilike about Paul Vunack is the energy and conviction he conveys while showing his concepts. He seems to have a focused intensity. Also its nice to see a relatively lean guy develop such a reputation in terms of street effectiveness...

I don't disagree with this at all. I have also watched a lot of lower level fighting and the boxing and standup skills there leave as much to be desired. But a lot of the top NHB fighters aren't professing to be instructors and certainly not of boxing. Most have standup coaches and learn the technique from them. I on the other hand have seen people teach JKD classes and teach standup and when I watch them punch it is appauling. On the same note, how can one honestly learn how to defend a properly thrown punch if they haven't ever seen one thrown in their gym. Not everyone throws wild haymakes. Sometimes those punches are going to come straight down the middle.

That is one of the major points I was trying to get across. You can't properly defend against something, whether it be a good 1-2, a double leg, an underhook, a thai kick...etc if nowone in the gym can ever throw one/do one properly because the intructor is teaching shitty technique and passing it off as gold. I have trained with an excellent pro boxing coach (having won two novice boxing titles) a pro thai caoch (having won an amatuer muay thai title) and with some of the greatest JKD/NHB coaches from the SBG (which I myself am one). I can go to sleep at night feeling confident that what I am teaching to my guys is good stuff and will day make them successful in the ring/cage and protect them and their loved one's in the street.

pasrt of the reason that people's mechanics are poor(at most kickboxing schools) is the fact that the instructor just wants to collect the tuition.
Keep 'em happy, don't criticize, run them thru the motions. Collect your check. Appalling, but all too common

Guys why is boxing such a big deal or some revelation. The reason I got into JKD in 77/78 is because Bruce thought boxing was essential to real fighting. I believed it then, I believe it now. Where has everyone been ? J.M.


why was my post deleted?


Guys "why is boxing such a big deal or some revelation"

because when martial arts entered into the US
in the 60's it was seen as something exotic, new and secretive whereas boxing was taken for granted because it was seen everyday. So, that attitude has permeated for years. Incidently, I just picked up my yellow pages. about (roughly) 96% of the martial arts schools
out there are traditional arts. Kickboxing and BJJ combined make up the remaining 4%!

The more things change.........


I have obviously not been around the MA as long as you have. But I can say that in the short years that I have been around I have come across so many so called JKD/streetfighter types that wouldn't know a good jab-cross-hook-cross combo if it bit them in the ass. I go to seminars and events and all over and I see some of the crappiest boxing on the planet. How can someone be such a great streetfighter or consider themselves a JKD practicioner and not even be able to throw a crisp 1-2?

"i use trapping in full contact mma fighting. It actually works for me. I just need to figure out why its not working for others "

You answered your own question. You're putting your
knowledge to use in the ring. Just drilling alone
without real application reduces martial arts
to performance arts correct. Fingers are tired now. If you build it, they will come. If you train it alive, it will work.

hmm... i understand why you guys say trapping doesn't work. I have seen very few people be able to use it, but i have been using trapping agaisnt boxers and grapplers for years. Its not straight WC of course, but i've had allot of success with it. Even at AMC people were really impressed with my ability to stop takedowns with it. Also beat on some state level wrestlers. Sure they are no mark coleman but i use trapping in full contact mma fighting. It actually works for me. I just need to figure out why its not working for others i suppose, and start educating people on how to make trapping work. :) Hopefully someday i'll figure out a way to put it into words you guys can understand on this forum :P

Speaking plainly, I am not concerned at all that any of the SBG Instructors are ever going to get into a fight with a wing Chun man. And if they did, I am sure they would do fine with the simple tools of boxing, wrestling, and BJJ that we prefer to functionalize. In fact I think most people would be fine with simple boxing against such an opponent. As far as I am concerned, someone that does not have that boxing 'delivery system' (there is that word again) is someone that probably cannot fight on their feet anyway. (I have some very cool footage of some recent 'attempted challange matches' that occured at my Gym when some WC people wandered in. I didn't know it was possible to get your nose broken, and tap at least 20 times within 60 seconds!, You will be able to see it on our next videos, anyway. . )

The opponents to be worried about these days are strong, conditioned, wrestlers who are going to ground and pound you into a bloody pulp. Or fast, athletic, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu people, who are going to body lock, mount, and pound you into a bloody pulp. Also, many people in the USA have a wrestling background. From High School, or College. The odds of getting into a fight with a wrestler, Judoka, or even a BJJ'r are a million times higher then ever meeting that mythicaly dangerous wing chun man (after all, even if they where dangerous, how many of them are there?). Wrestlers are everywhere.

Now as you look around the Country and see what most JKD Instructors are teaching it is high outside reference points, pok sau cycles, lop sau cycles, etc. Those seem to be basics most teach right away. However, real basics that are needed for fighting in the clinch, simple things that we consider fundamental to fighting like a snap down. The snap down is such a BASIC move, used every single day at the Gym for fighting. If you don't know it, or how to defend it properly, you are dead in the water against a skilled modern clinch player. A turtle neck, when someone grabs you in a neck tie; a whizzer to defend the Brazilian body lock, or bear hug; a sprawl, sprawling off punches, headlock escapes against a wrestler, or Judo players headlock; spider guard defense vs a wrestlers ground and pound strategy; and perhaps one of the simplest and most important skills for real fighting, the simple level change. (If you can't change levels, then you probably wont be able to stay on your feet and defend against even a simple tackle.) are totally ignored.

How many JKD schools are teaching level changes as a basic? It's ridiculous. These things are not even touched on most of the time. So the priorities are completely and totally out of whack. Obviously I am painting with a broad brush here. Some schools do prioritize. My point is those Gyms are rare.

I could walk into the majority of JKD schools in the world and ask to see a high outside pok sau da, and everyone would probably be able to easily demonstrate that. Sadly, even new people. I could ask to see Lop Sau cycle, or Hubud, and they are all over it! But a simple, fundemental level change, a sprawl, a snap down, a peek out, things we see every single day in sparring, These are rarely known, and usually done poorly if they are done at all.