What is the point of pinning an opponent, from a purely combative standpoint?
I understand knockouts in pugilism & MMA.
I understand subs in sub wrestling, sport BJJ, MMA, etc.
I understand the value of high-amplitude throws in various combat sports.
But I'm not clear as to the utility of the pin.
Could someone break this down for me?
Think of it this way, have you ever been pinned? Nothing breaks the will like being pinned, completely controlled and unable to get up... Think of it like being dominated so completely that the winner DIDN'T even have to hurt you to incapacitate you.
That being said, I think that most ground and pound comes into play when the "poundee" is on his back. Pinning gives the catch wrestler incentive to stay on top. I also imagine, that since CACC began as a workman's sport, they needed a past time that wouldn't leave their hands damaged for work the next day...
The history and meaning of the pin is a very interesting question and I am sure there are a ton of different meanings.
Pinning is really a sport thing. Being able to pin a man does show a superior ability to control your opponent, but it's a lot safer than hooking him. Let's face it, if one grappler can readily control his opponent he can most likely readily submit him. (if he knows some hooks) A good amateur wrestler that only knows the double wristlock will often frustrate reasonably experienced jiu-jitsu players. I have also watched judo player easily hold down jiu jitsu players. It is really, IMHO a way to win that As for real world self defense, a pin is sometimes the best way to deal with some jabroni that has lost his temper but has no skill. Just hooking someone like that can get you in trouble with the law.
"Nothing breaks the will like being pinned, completely controlled and unable to get up... Think of it like being dominated so completely that the winner DIDN'T even have to hurt your to incapacitate you."...Exactly!
Well said JakeWrestler.
yah, I totally agree with Jake. You can't do spit to a guy whos got ya pinned.
Coming from a bjj background I've rolled with guys who started out in wrestling and then moved in submission wrestling. I always thought pinning was kind of a strange thing that to me makes more sense in MMA than in actual grappling. I've known guys that if they could pass my guard they could pin me but these same guys could never tap me. Once they do anything other than just holding me I've always been able to get out right away.
Pinning makes a lot more sense to me in MMA since you can pin a guy and hit him, get good ground control and ground and pound. This really hit home for me when I saw Tito Ortiz put a guy in a near side cradle and the guy couldn't get out of it while Tito kneed him in the face.
Pinning exhibits one of the cornerstone principles of
Catch Wrestling= CONTROL
Pinning shows that you have completely overcome your
opponents offense and his defense leaving him no
recourse.
Combatitively speaking If you can control your man you
can hook him or hit him at will. A certain instructor
I had used to scream at me when I would hook my
opponent using speed without setting up control first.
The order was 1.)takedown 2.) control 3.) hook or pin
The pin can also be a set up for keylocks, kimuras (double wristlocks), straight arm bars, chokes (using the opponents arms, like a loop choke, cobra clutch etc).
From a restraint point of view a pin makes someone pretty helpless. You get attacked on the street, or someones fucked on drugs, take em down and restrain them with some sort of tie up pin...
From side control if someone is really good and is able to pin you and you can't escape, then yeah that would be demoralizing. But being "pinned" because I'm on the bottom and he's in my guard, not even remotely.
In a street situation, it's bad. In MMA most guys get pounded from there
"But being "pinned" because I'm on the bottom and he's in my guard, not even remotely."
Pinning is like a "time hold," it gives me time to rest, catch my breath, re-think a strategy, attempt another submission; cause you to panic, perhaps it will cause you to gimme an arm to work on;it will give me time to call my buddies to kick your head (sorry about that one!).
Ive found a good pin is very frustrating in that I cant escape easily and when I do try I cough up submissions.
ttt
Remember that on the battlefield, you would probably have a weapon. Imagine a guy in armour, you pin him, then use a daggar on him... He's helpless, you can probe for the gaps in the armour and use bodyweight to drive the point home...meanwhile, he is on his back trying to stab upward...
Or alternatively, a warrior might pin another in order to take him prisoner. I seem to recall that in the Middle Ages, ransoms were a nice way to build up the old castle account.
shoe
How much ground wrestling/catch would actually be used in war, though?
Thinking about the pin in the evolution of combat, perhaps it evolved as a way of being able to kill your opponent, either by immobilizing him as you used your weapon on him or, hold him down as your partner skewered him or crushed his skull. Just conjecture but it kind of makes sense somewhat, IMHO.
Well, It's believed that Pankration was developed originally on the battlefield. And by looking at the art of Pankration matches, it appears that the ground and pound was their bread and butter. Tyeing up their opponent with 3 limbs while leaving one hand free to fight. So the possibility exists that the pin could have been developed on the battlefield.
top for "objective12"
"Well, It's believed that Pankration was developed originally on the
battlefield. And by looking at the art of Pankration matches, it appears
that the ground and pound was their bread and butter."
This is not even remotely correct. The whole greek approach to war
and their strategic innovation was to avoid any sort of single combat
on the battlefield. They fought as a team, the phlanx was a
cooperative weapon of mass destruction . . . lots of pushing stabbing,
(think of a giant human lawnmower) but no wrestling on the ground.
You'd be crushed by the team.
War and sport were completely seperate in greek culture. Boxing,
wrestling and pankration were not sports hoplites participated in to
prepare for war. By the time pankration was part of the games
athletes were semi-pro and completely dedicated to their success in
sport.
There are some quotes of greek generals regarding athletes as
decadent, self-absorbed and unprepared for the hardships of war . . .
long marches, scarce food, etc.